as a crew...
 

Ok, had this pop up last night during a summer league game. How would you handle this as a crew?...

3-person. I'm L tableside (in front of A's bench). A1 has inside position for a rebound during a shot and B1 is behind him. Ball bounces high, and it's one of those real quick bang-bang out of bounds plays with both guys reaching up high to try and swipe the ball. I see the ball go off of A1's hands out of bounds, give ball to B. Team A and A's coach all have kittens in response to the call (team A coach then proceeds to question EVERY call I make for the next 5 minutes, which I know, my fault, I should haveput an end to THAT eaerly and not let it go on for several minutes).

At halftime, my partner, who was C on the particular out of bounds play says that the only reason the ball went off of A1 was b/c he was being pushed in the back by B1. I couldn't see this contact b/c I was L on the play and was looking up top at hands trying to tip the ball and apparently got straightlined.

Partner says he at T both had a push in the back on B1 but both laid off of it. They said they would have changed the call if I had asked for help on the OBB play.

Thing was, I SAW the ball go off of A (which they agree with). But if I don't have the angle to see the contact, how can I ask for help when I'm sure it went off of A? How do you handle this as a crew? I wanted to say "well, if you both saw the contact, then call it!", but felt I would come across as some pompus, in-experienced hot shot, questioning seasoned veterans (a no no on our board when working with certain vets). Could I have mentioned that a different way? How would you handle this as a crew? Maybe I should have taken a step or two during the rebound action to get a better angle? Looking for some honest help with this particular situation. Thanks!

They passed on a foul, a foul so obvious that given the opportunity they would have changed a call that was just as obvious....:confused:

Sounds like your "seasoned vets" need some more seasoning.....

If you think you had the call right, then there was NO need to ask for help. You just live and die with it unless one of your partners does come in.

And neither of your partners can change a violation to a foul if you do go to them for help. There's no rules backing to do that. The idea from the git-go is to get the call right. If either of your partners really wanted to get the call right, they would have immediately came to you to discuss it. And that discussion consists of deciding what occurred first---> the violation or the foul. That's what you and your partner(s) have to come to a concensus on.

You're completely right in analyzing the play post-call to see if you should have done something different to maybe get into a better position to see the contact. But sometimes you just can't see that type of contact from the L and you have to depend on your partner(s) to catch it. Doo-doo happens.

From a political standpoint, let it go. There's no upside in getting into it any further. Experience does not necessarily equate to competency. And from your description, that seems to suit your partners to a T. Part of the learning process is learning what partners you can learn from.

Good job on your part imo. I wouldn't sweat it any further.

Thanks for the help all. Yeah, told myself last night that i would let it tick me off until I went to bed, and next morning i'd not worry about it any longer (the nice frosty cold one I had when I got home helped too :)

New day, not worrying about it anymore. But I do appreciate the feedback. :D

"I would come across as some pompus, in-experienced hot shot, questioning seasoned veterans (a no no on our board when working with certain vets). "

This is total crap...if you are not going to work as a crew than I don't want to work with them. I would have come off at a pompus a$$ and questioned them big time. Call the DARN foul. :confused:

Just because you are a seasoned veteran official doesn't mean you are any good or don't make mistakes...I am pissed for you.

You'd better know the local politics well before you do something like this. You may be 100% right but kicking up a fuss with a couple of good ol' boys that may have a l'il stroke in your area might just be the worst thing that you can do as a new official.

Unfortunately, there's a real world out there. And the right thing isn't necessarily the smartest thing...or the best option.

Again, jmo.

Then the bigger question is why is the environment like that? Why are we killing ourselves? What year of officiating do you become untouchable...year 10-15? In our association our veteran officials try to improve themselves every year and are willing to give feedback and well as receive it. A crew means a team of three...no part being more improtant than the other two.

+1

Know who's who in your neck of the woods! Pissing off the wrong person could land you in F/JV circuit for good.


That being said, in regards to vbzebras sitch, lets be good partners & get the call right!! I hate when "partners" dont give help because you didn't ask for it, especially on plays they know you can't see :mad:

At the end of the day, egos aside, lets get it right as we are paid to do.

If you have definite knowledge that will help the crew and the game you better come forward with it. Don't wait until we are in the locker room.

Yeah it doesn't do us much good at that time, does it.

But you know what they say, everybody isn't cut out to be an R!

Baloney !!

This is no different than handling a coach that's been around forever.

If the guy's ego is so fragile that a 'newbie" sets him straight, then more people need to be setting him straight.

The culture (knowing who's who) will remain until we so something about it.

We have to make sure we pregrame this and if you are the R on the game make sure you make your crew confortable with coming in and giving information.

I totally agree...in our area this is the difference between old school officials and new school officials. Our local association was ran by the old guard until about 8-10 years ago, I think the association has been better off since the new guard took over.

I respect that, but is not easier to make change from the inside, as oppossed to being the new kid on the block who is merely trying to get in??

The bigger issue is that the veteran officials didn't have his back at all, and because of that the coach was riding the new guys for a situation that could have been corrected in 15 seconds.

Unfortunately, that's a very accurate statement in my experience. It's a real world out there. You have to know your local dynamics. And unfortunately you also have to adjust to those local dynamics.

It's up to the local officials collectively to change those dynamics. One person ain't gonna do it. And if you're that one person, you might end up doing games down at Podunk MS for years.

Note that I'm just as much against crappy local local politics as any of you. I just don't believe in them. But in your own area, you might not have a choice. As I said, there's a real world out there.

Jurassic, you make some valid points, but how did we let it get to where it is today?

Human nature. It really is that simple.

This wasn't a "coming in and giving information" play. It was a play where the Lead was apparently straight-lined and the C and L passed on a foul Then they come in at halftime criticizing the Lead's OOB call.

Then it would have only taken 5 seconds if they would have called the obvious foul that both of them had.

He wasn't straight-lined because the lead shouldn't be getting rebound fouls of this nature...the center and trail have good lucks...blow your whistle.

The Lead shouldn't get a shove in the back that's right in front of him? I get 'em all the time.

Completely agree.

A push from behind on rebounding action is almost always more easily seen from the C and T. One of them should have called the foul. Since they didn't, forget it. Happens more often than it should.

As a general rule (not hard and fast) most rebounds fouls should come from the two outside officials. The lead will get some obvious shoves right in front of them.

If there was a push on the play by player B, and the ball goes OOB, the resulting OOB violation on player B is perfectly acceptable in most game mgmt situations I've seen.

If the ball doesn't go OOB and team B recovers the rebound, then the C and/or T probably shouldn't pass on that call using a patient whistle.

I think part of the problem was the fact that I was too close to the play (mid-point on end line as L) and didn't back up far enough to the wide position when I saw the two trees moving towards me to jump for the rebound, and I was too focused on looking at their hands up to to see who was going to touch it last...

I would say your classic "over-the-back" calls should come from the outside. But shoves in the back usually occur when one or both players are still on the ground. The Lead should be working for the angle to see between the 2 players.

I would totally agree with you on this.

You have to be careful, if there is a foul on team B and then the Lead gives the ball to team B you are going to come in with a very late whistle and get the foul?

Who said anything about a "late" whistle? ;)

Point taken. But, seriously, just pausing for that extra half sec or so can make a big difference in how that situation plays out.

First of all this is "summer league" stuff. This was not the regular season where this would probably be a bigger issue. People in the summer make mistakes all the time and we forget about it a day later. And overreacting in the summer time is really a mistake many younger officials make. This was one play for God's sake, not several events.

Yes there are politics involved, but this is really not a political issue. And just speaking up would not mean that you would be relegated to anything during the summer. Some of this would depend on the area, but I cannot imagine much coming from one conversation that was conducted professionally would be that big of a deal.

Peace

Agreed. I'll delay my whistle, but I'll have one regardless. If I see my partner has a fist up, I'll drop my arm. If he just has his hand up, I'll close in and offer my opinion. It's possible he saw A1's foot on the line prior to the foul.

here's what I would have said/done:

"thanks for sharing that info. with me here at halftime. I have a question for both of you: what good is that info. to me now? In the future, if you have info. that should be shared w/ me, share it with me on the floor - NOT in the locker room. there is absolutely nothing I can do about it now."

Why do some associations insist on perpetuating the good ol' boy crap?

There's no one-size-fits-all answer imo. Unfortunately, you have to adjust to your enviroment and either hope like hell the enviroment changes or work like hell to change the enviroment. The inherent risk though is that if you're gonna work like hell to change the enviroment, you might just screw-up your officiating career path while doing so.

A good idea might be to become fairly established in your local association before before trying to get the changes made. If you are, it's easier because you've established some credibility with your fellow officials.

Officiating should be a meritocracy and a democracy, but what it should be ain't necessarily what it is. And you may have to adjust to "what it is" until "what it is" changes.

I do not think this is an association issue, I think it is an individual issue. Individuals like to say "politics" or "Ole Boy Network" when they are not in the loop or they are not getting the assignments they feel they should. Politics that I have seen always applies to people of similar stature. Politics is not holding back a young official because an older guy is around. In many cases you need the younger guys to work or progress because the older guys will leave. But no one is just getting rid of some veteran because a younger official thinks they can officiate a little. No matter how you say that, younger guys want to get to the top fast and do not understand the ramifications if they mess up early in their careers. Veterans are often in higher positions because we know what we will get from them. I have no idea what some young whippersnapper is going to do when they have yet to prove themselves. And something tells me that these veterans probably would not have made as big deal about the issue as the younger officials would.

Peace

believe me, i want to learn as much as possible to become a better official, and I know that I'm not about to take the position/games of a well established veteran. It just seems like sometimes (at least that's what I've heard from others, both in my association and on this forum) that we (newer officials) are sometimes frowend upon when a veteran gives us advice and then we ask questions...with no intention of trying to "show up" a vet, but just to ask a simple question and get an answer for informational purposes.

I know it's a fine line to tread. In response to my original post, i know all 3 of us mucked up on that particular play, beginning with me getting straight lined. I know it's 'summer league', but I want to use those games to get better for the 'real' games come the winter.

All of these respones/answers have been extremly helpful, I really appreicate everyone's input!!

JRut,

Don't you also think the old boys systems is still around because the old boys have a lot of the games to assign? Those who have games have the power!

I assign a summer league in our area and we like to treat it just like the regular season. IMO too many guys let summer games get too rough and then all hell breaks loose and they wonder why that happen...it doesn't happen during the regular season.

Maybe you work in a different system, but I am a President of an organization and I have no power as to who works and does not work games for anyone. All I can do is give my opinion on individuals that work in a couple of camps I am associated with and all that does is maybe we pass along some information if I am asked. And the people in my area that assign have to be impressed by the individual, not by me or anyone else in a similar position. And I did not hear that these two veterans were in a position to change the outcome of someone's career.

I seriously doubt you treat it the same, because I doubt the participants treat it the same. In other words I doubt seriously that you have the same media coverage for summer games as you would during the regular season. Which probably means if a team wins a tournament or plays in a league, I doubt that there are banners hung up for those accomplishments or championships.

Also summer is probably the place where guys are working with people and teams they would likely not see during the winter. I am not talking about letting it get rough; I am talking about the ramifications for mistakes. Summer is the time to make a lot of them as the outcome is not going to be perceived the same.

I just think we should not over play this interaction. It was an interesting play that should have been handled differently in my opinion. But that does not mean that if some questions were asked the person's career would be over because they were talking about a play. Veterans that care talk about plays all the time to get better. And maybe if the right question was raised (like JeffPea suggested) then it might have been a teaching moment for all officials.

Peace

+1, especially the "diffferent" way of asking my original question (thanks to JeffPea). I know the vet was only trying to help, and i was totally appreciative of the info/help, just wish it could have come immidiately after i blew the call :eek:

And the advice here has been to make sure the OP understands his system and who is who before saying a whole lot. Even completely professional remarks and intentions can be misconstrued by someone who wants to do so for whatever reason.

Our board president does not assign games, but I would guarantee you his opinion carries a lot of weight with our board's assigner. Here, unlike your area, all assignments come from the local association, so going sideways with leadership is a great way to limit options.

It seems to me there are three sorts of power players in most associations:
1. Officers (pres, vp, secretary, etc.)
2. Former Officers
3. Veterans who don't serve as official leadership but whose opinions carry significant weight.

As in every organization, some of those folks will be more "sensitive" than others.

Very few have answered OP's actual question...

Here's how I would have handled this, knowing that I'm a newbie and the other two are GOB veterans...

"Someone I worked with a few weeks ago was telling me that if I'm T or N in that situation, I should blow the whistle. Is that incorrect? If our positions were reversed on that play, would you expect me to call the foul? Would you, as L, have automatically come to your partners asking if they saw a foul, when you had no reason to believe there was one?"

Absoultely. This is one of the items on the pregame checklist. Admittedly, I don't always pregame summer/aau/wreck games unless I'm with a cadet or somebody I don't know. And God bless you for having summer 3 person games. We don't have much.

Our 3 man mechanics have taught us that as L, this is not your foul to call (unless it's obvious and you see it). Your call is the OOB, which you made without question. This is one of those situations where when it happened to me, I just made a mental note of which jokers I was working with and made an on the spot determination if I was gonna press it any further. I was also wondering if the bench or players were complaining about the non-call...?

If you know your rules and know your on court positioning and mechanics, you can be confident that you are right regardless of your partner(s).

Z

"Dammit. I guess I just flat-out missed that one. Look, since I'm obviously not getting a good look from Lead, would you guys do me a favor and grab any rebounding fouls you see from T or C? It'd really save my @ss."

My experience is that it's always easier for other people to hear suggestions when it's actually my problem and they're helping me out of a jam. A spoonful of sugar. . .

If that is the case then none of us should ever officiate. That is life. Things in life can always be misconstrued, but that does not mean that one interaction is going to be the end all be all in someone's career. We are talking about one play here that was talked about. I do not think anyone should walk on egg shells to avoid all conflicts of any kind.

In my association we need young guys. They will one day replace us in all kinds of ways. I cannot be in my position forever. I am sure many other associations realize this too.

I understand this, but this was not apart of the OP. He did not say his partners were in any particular stature other than they were veterans, which probably means they had some experience on him in officiating. Heck you might have a person that has a little experience on someone that has little perspective and they could "run and tell" what happened. We cannot spend all our time worrying about that or it will make us ineffective as officials. All veterans were helped at one time by other veterans when they were younger officials. I just think we should not automatically assume that everyone that has worked longer than you has the interest or the ability to ruin you over one game.

Peace

Not to mention, we've all worked with guys with 20 years experience, and other guys with 1 year of experience 20 times.

Knowing what to say, how to say it, and to whom to say it are important traits no matter what part of life we're discussing. It's also different than walking on egg shells.
Here is the relevant comment from the OP: "questioning seasoned veterans (a no no on our board when working with certain vets)."

I took this to mean that this group was, essentially, part of my #3 above. It doesn't mean the OP shouldn't or couldn't have probed deeper, but I think it does imply that he needs to be professional in how he brings it up. As scrapper points out, there are ways to do this by bringing it back upon yourself. For me, I can still use the "I just want to know how it's done here" card. In the OP, I could have said, "I just want to know how you guys do it so I'm consistent, but I was taught to come in with a foul in that situation. Are you saying it's expected to wait until the lead asks for help on this play?"

Maybe it shouldn't be that way, but sometimes it just is.

It sounds like you were set up by the vets. Lesson learned. Pregame the event by saying that sometimes I miss behind contact as lead and would appreciate any help from C and T. You will soon learn who is with you and who is not.

good point...R's don't really usually pregame in summer league, but I think i'm going to start asking for at least a brief/basic one for situations like this!

Generally as a rule of thumb if a bench and the whole crowd react very displeased with an OOB call I look at my partner and ask if he had anything I might have missed (I only do this when for example I am lead and the ball goes OOB opposite side of where I am).

If he did pass on a foul here is where he would tell me if we DO get together and I will change the call myself.

for the sake of argument, are you really "missing" contact? maybe it's semantics, but, instead of missing that contact, you just didn't see the contact...and, not because you weren't in position or not doing your job. it takes a team to do the job right and cover the angles.

Here is where I tell him that I am not changing an obvious out of bounds call off A because he passed on a foul.

How the heck do you explain that to B's coach, when everyone (including you) saw and knows that A was the only one to touch the ball before it went OOB?

That's a can of worms you do not want opened. Nothing good can come from it. Changing it in this manner will linger....

Awarding the ball to A in this situation has to sold immediately. Then, if B's coach asks, you can respond with "either way A gets the ball, do you want the foul (and possibly shots) or just the OOB?

If the foul caused the problem, a good coach will understand, be good with it, and will move on.

I may have been too close to the play, but as they were fighting for the rebound in that quick tip second, i was looking up top to see who tipped it last. This is where my partner said B1 was 'over the back' of A1, causing A1 to touch it last. Said he was hoping i'd give the ball back to A1, to 'save B1 a foul'.

Exactly. I'm tracking with you, vbz. Which is the reason I'm not telling everyone in pre-game that I might "miss" some contact.

No way do I say it that way. Rather, I say something similar to this, "my partners and I will be working as a team to catch as much illegal contact as possible.".

Wait a second, are you talking about the pregame meeting with the coaches? :eek:

VB here are .02 from a fellow Commonwealther:
You made the right call. Some officials think that getting the OB correct is the most difficult call in a game.
I was brought up in the school that most rebounding fouls should come from the C and/or T. It is very difficult for an L to see a push in the back.
What the other officials MIGHT have been thinking was that you saw the push in the back, and passed on it in favor of just awarding the ball to A. When you gave it to B, they were *&$%ed. (and you SHOULD have given it to B based on what you saw)
As for addressing the guys later, I would have said something to the effect "yeah, if I had seen the push I might have given it to A, but since all I saw was A touch it last I had to go with that." It is VERY non committal and should keep you out of any hotwater with any local politics.
Drop me a line if you head over to the Central part of the Commonwealth!

I thought that is what the other poster was implying since the angry B coach was part of the discussion.

I would choose not to say the words "I might miss some contact" no matter who I'm talking to....partners or otherwise. DEF NOT a coach, at any time.

All I am saying is you cannot officiate in fear. You have to officiate as if you are just as good as the people you are dealing with. If there is a conflict, handle it professionally. And if there is a conflict, then know your place in that conflict. That is why the term "silence cannot be quoted" works in so many areas. But not talking about the play honestly is not good IMO. And I think stature of an official is based more on accomplishment then simply years of experience. We have many guys that have been around for 20 years but cannot work a playoff game. I would be more concerned about butting heads with the state final/college official than just a guy that I worked with that has been doing this for 15 years.

Peace

Personally, if I'm talking to other officials, it really goes without saying. I don't even get into that arena with coaches in a game setting, though. I wouldn't even say the following to a coach:

It's almost as bad as listing the year's POEs and saying you're watching for them.

Agreed.

Agreed.

Your partner needs to put air in his whistle if the foul is that obvious.

Just based on that, I say your coaches meetings are to lengthy.

Do you also tell them that you will be crediting a team with 2 points per basket unless the shot is made with 2 feet behind the 3 point line, in which case you will award 3 points? :)

My point ... don't say stuff like this. Of course you're out there to enforce the rules... they know this. Say the CYA stuff, and anything the assignor wants reinforced for whatever reason.

One of my pet peeves is an umpire in baseball/softball (strangely I almost never come across this in football, basketball, or volleyball) who uses the plate conference to either teach a rule or explain that we will be calling by the rules, or (with, perhaps, the exception of the 1st week of a season) "the infield fly rule is in effect" or "Dropped 3rd strike is in effect." Again ... Say the CYA, check the lineups, point out potential field problems or odd ground rules if any ... and go.

I've seen it in basketball; correctable error rule. Same guy also gives the "black line all the way around" speech to the players. But, he was a great partner once the ball went up.

Make Up Calls ???
 

I'm assuming that in the quote above that the ball actually went off player A, but the official chose to give the ball to Team A rather than call a foul against player B. If this is actually a close out of bounds call, and the possible foul is a close call as well, I've seen veteran officials make such a call. In fact, in the past, I've made this call myself several times. However, in this modern era, when every single play, in every single game, is videotaped by a coach, or a parent, in some cases with a cell phone, I am now hesitant to make such a call. Now, as the lead, I simply try as hard as I can to make the correct call, it's either out of bounds off player A, or it's a foul on Player B. If my partner, at the trail, wants of offer me some help, I'm more than glad to listen to the advice, but I try not to make up "make up calls" anymore.

It's still the expected call in some areas, BillyMac.

Read pg 4 of this thread for context.