Excessive swinging of elbows

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

2009-10 NCAA-M POE

Excessive Swinging of the Elbows
Last year, there were increases in excessive swinging of the elbows. This action should not be ignored because of the associated danger to another player. Contact resulting from an illegally thrown elbow can cause serious injury. Consequently, excessive swinging of the elbow(s) is a point of emphasis.

When the arm and elbow, with the shoulder as a base (pivot) are swung with a speed that exceeds the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot, that action is considered to be excessive. Contact, after such an action, shall not be ignored but shall be called a flagrant foul. When the player’s arm(s) and elbow(s) are swung excessively but without contact, a violation has been committed.

When the arms and elbows and the rest of the body move with the same or similarly generated speed and contact occurs, that contact is not considered to be excessive. However, the contact is illegal, and a foul shall be assessed.

Further to this, I just e-mailed 4 very trust-worthy(to me, anyway ) sources that I know....2 current D1 mens officials and 1 each current D1/D2 womens officials. All are excellent rules people imo and all seemed to have the same take on this NCAA POE...as follows:

1) This POE applies to excessive swinging of the elbows only. There is some confusion as to how it will also apply to a normal, legal pivot when contact is made with an elbow above and below the neck of an opponent. That needs to be further clarified.

2) For elbows swung faster than the pivot:
(a) violation if no contact
(b) foul of some type for contact
(c) if the contact is above the neck, it has to be called intentional or flagrant.

3) elbows at the same speed as the pivot:
(a) no violation if no contact
(b) the positioning of the elbow is the determining factor if contact is made. You have to decide if the positioning of the elbow was inside the offensive player's normally allowed space or extended outside the normally allowed space.
(c) If the position of the elbow was inside the normally allowed space when contact occurs, any subsequent contact should be ruled incidental.
(d) If the position of the elbow was outside the normally allowed space, it should be a personal foul of some kind on the offensive player. But if the contact outside the normally allowed space also occurs above the neck of the defender, the foul then has to be ruled either intentional or flagrant.

I think that's basically exactly what I was saying, with the addition of the last part of 3(d) that says that contact outside the normally allowed space that is made above the neck having to now always be called intentional or flagrant in nature.

As I said, all four said that they thought some further clarification was needed.

Thoughts from other NCAA officials?

And please note that this is for NCAA only. Afaik, the NFHS rules already cited still apply.