Survey says.....
 

While this sounds like an officiating urban legend, this happened and wanted to throw it out for dissemination.
Saturday girls AAU game 2 person crew. Ball goes OB and whistle sounds. As the player start to decongregate around the play, A's center hits the deck doubled over gasping for air.. B's center is the closest player and while standing over her is not taunting. Neither official sees how/why A hits the deck, L was opposite side of lane base line T was sorta deep, but A's parents in the stands had a great view of what happened and are going crazy saying it was a cheap shot.
Coach is beckoned on to the court to tend the player, players dad comes out and is sort of upset. As the player gets helped off the floor the coach approaches the L official, get about 6" from his face and in a calm voice says words to the effect "You obviously didn't see what happened. Since I didn't either, I can't really get upset, but I wanted to stand here for a minute, point over to the spot where my player hit the floor and shake my head. I am not upset, but this way my parents will think I am really laying into you. So if you want, feel free to shake your head and point to my bench and I will walk over there shaking my head and pointing at the spot. This way the parents will think I got my point across and lay off of you" The coach gets pointed to his bench, his parents cheer, the coach heads off the floor and........
If you're THAT official what would you do?

Purposely play along with a scenario which makes it look as though the coach is ripping the official??? :eek:

Nope, not what I would do.

Quite frankly, if a coach came to me with this proposition, I could see myself going along with this as long as it wasn't prolong.

This happens a lot in baseball. Coaches come out knowing we got it right and act a little animated or come out looking mad and even given us credit for getting the play right, then walks away. It sounds like this was his intention while letting you know he is not mad, while making his fans feel like he did not just do anything. I cannot think I have ever had that happen in a basketball setting. I guess I would play along if it was not long. I think I would have to be there and use my instincts.

Peace

I would get that coaches address and send him a nice gift card in the mail for saving my butt.:)

I would probably point at the bench and get it over with. My last job in the Air Force involved acting mad at times when I wasn't really mad so I'm used to this sort of situation.

I would pretend to T him up. Then I would report it to the table and we would shoot 2 FTs. :)

If the coach isn't doing or saying anything unsportsman-like and wasn't delaying the game (ie: player is still departing the court; wet spot being dried) then I don't see the need to do anything other than maybe saying "situations like this is why I always like 3 officials on the court". ;)

I doubt that I would acknowledge anything the coach said. I would go about my business of getting the required sub in the game and resuming play (which would require the coach leaving the floor). From that point, I would treat it like any other interaction with a coach.

+1

You do what you think fits the particular situation.

The coach is actually acknowledging that you didn't see it. He just wants the players and parents to think he has their backs.

This is a fairly common thing in high level baseball. I would have no problem with it if it was over quickly and he didn't show me up afterward.

In football, I've told a coach (after an inadvertent whistle by a member of my crew) that he has 30 seconds to say pretty much whatever he wants, on the condition that once that 30 seconds is over, we move on and there's no more said about it.

Role playing. Officiating and coaching both have elements of it.

So you were assigned to Gitmo? :D

JRut mentioned baseball. Somewhere, there's footage of Tommy Lasorda doing something similar to this with an umpire. It appeared that Lasorda was tearing Blue a new one, and while it got the crowd on his side (and off his back), he was actually being complimentary.

Does anyone remember the commercial a few years ago where Lou Piniella "angrily" gave an umpire praise? I'm pretty sure that was based on actual events.

If a coach wanted to do this, I'd be cool with it. I'd enjoy the challenge of keeping a straight face.

OK, it is time to come clean. I was the coach!! I thought the officials did a good job, especially considering it was their 3rd game in a row in a gym that had no A/C. I could see him talk to his partner about it later and he had a good laugh. My parents were satisfied so it was all good. The only other thing I said to them , besides callling for a TO, was after a good (but unpopular) call the official was right next to me as FT's were being attempted. I got right next to him and said "That was a really good call. I don't see how you can expect my team to win if you keep making good calls like that!" Despite the fact that they made good calls the rest of the game we still won!!

Then next time, Nevada should be assigned to your games.

I would rather have GOODWILLREF on the game. I can use all the gift cards I can get!!

BBRef - If you pretended to "T" me up, you would have to pretend to use a ball to shoot the pretend free throws and any points that they pretended to score would obviously not count to the real score and only put me down at most 2 points in the fantasy AAU League!!:D

And if TOMEGUN was at GITMO then I am sure he would have seen the play and called it accordingly and the rest would have been moot!

Well, the father would have been out of the gym. That's for sure.

For the record, Nevada would have been standing down at the other end of the court with his partners discussing something of great importance while the coach was on the floor attending to his player. Plus we wouldn't be returning until the coach was back at his bench. In short, there would not have been an opportunity for the coach to do his little act with me because I wouldn't have been there.

You got that right.
If daddy comes out onto the court, he earns himself a one-way ticket to the parking lot.

Unless, of course, game admin disagrees and allows the parent to stay.

+1

Sigh. This ridiculous stance agan.

It is so arrogant to think that you are so much bigger than the game that you're not going to allow a parent to check on their injured child. I can guarantee that if somebody ever pulled that stunt in our association, they'd find themselves looking for assignments somewhere else.

I never intend to find out the consequences of such a move in my association. While I won't be standing near the player or coach, as Nevada suggests, I will have other things to discuss and the father's brief presence on the court won't be noticed.

Now, if Dad decides to approach me in anger, that's a different story.

Professional suicide at any level. Don't be that guy.

Handled correctly by all?
 

I was doing a girls AAU Tourney this past weekend when a point guard was driving hard to the basket, slipt and fell and went down hard on the back of her head. She was down for several minutes with only the coach administering to her.

My P and I stood back and sent the teams to their benches, but kept them on the floor.

As the player finally recovered and got to her feet, the coach began to escort her to the bench. Her dad came around the side of the court and then to the endline to help her off the court and to go to the bathroom and outside for some fresh air.

TWEET. Game back on.

I know we've had this discussion before, but under these circumstances, I don't think I would have done anything if dad/mom came on the court to administer to their injured child.

My last weekend of AAU basketball a kid landed on his head and most definitely suffered a concussion. Sent the players to the their benches (to sit down if they so desired) and then advised the coaches that there was absolutely no rush at all to get the player up. We then stood back from the activity until the player was removed from the court. One adult from the stands came on the court to tend to the hurt player. I didn't concern myself one bit with that person.

7th grade summer league last week - kid playing defense moving full speed one direction and stops suddenly by putting all his weight on right leg at a tough angle. Knee buckles. Goes down on the spot in pain. Coach is summomed, players sent to direction of bench and told to stay on floor. A few moments after the coach starts talking to the kid, my partner kneels down and IDs himself as some type of full time rescue personnel. The dad nods and partner starts asking the kid if he can help him be more comfortable by turning his foot and straightening his leg so the kid could lay down. About that time, dad says "well, this guy here (standing next to him) is an ER doc". Partner immed defers.

You know, I've always been instructed to never touch a kid who is injured in any way. NEVER.

So, this situation was interesting because we had coach, dad and ER doc friend on floor AND partner was trying to assist.

I was OK with coach, dad, ER doc friend...not so comfy with partner. Maybe I'm out of line - I don't know. That partner was 10 years my senior in both age and experience so I just let him do his thing and stayed out of the way.

I believe there are certain professional ethics of being an EMT that would trump our best practices. If the ER doc hadn't been present, your partner may well have been the most medically qualified person in the building. I've got no issue with a partner rendering medical assistance when it fits his qualifications until on-duty medical personnel arrive.

The fact he identified himself as a qualified professional and the dad nodding did help reduce the awkward factor - though there was still some uncertainty in me. The kid turned out ok....sat in the bleacher the rest of the game with his leg elevated and limped off the court after the game on him own. I guess, that's the most important thing.

As I read this thread and reflect on personal experiences, I wonder if doing much more than fetching ice or finding a clean towel puts us in a situation of more risk than we really want in most injury situations, regardless of our professional merits off the court.

I will add that in summer ball, he may well be the most qualified person in the building. During the HS season in a sanctioned HS game, he most likely will not be the most qualified person present. At a college campus, I'd be willing to bet he's not even close. :)

Right. Good point.

I don't know if it is true in every state, but in IL at least there is a Good Samaratin law that says someone cannot be sued if something goes wrong when they are simply trying to help an injured person. Of course, if there are qualified individuals available, then by all means step aside and let them do what they can. And if the player is in no immediate danger, I won't be stepping in right away because I don't have any real medical training, other than CPR.

But we shouldn't be automatically afraid to help, simply because we might cause some possible unknown harm. And if a partner of mine told me they were trained in first aid, I would gladly let them step in with out giving it a second thought.

I was also under the impression that some states have laws requiring those qualified as EMTs to stop and render assistance in emergencies. Now, whether your partners qualifications indeed subject him to such requirements in your state is a question, as is whether the situation described qualifies as such a situation.

Often times, however, professional ethics go farther than state law requirements. Add to that the understanding that your partner may have simply felt obligated to offer his assistance, thinking he was the most qualified.

Based on what I'm learning from this conversation, it sounds like my partner did the right thing and went about doing it the right way.

I think so, but I wasn't there; and it doesn't make it less awkward as he's opening himself up to cheap shots.

Not sure what that means. Help me out.

Just saying that, 1) regardless of why he does it, it's still going to feel awkward to a partner who isn't used to it. We're always told to get away from the player in this situation, so when a partner goes against that grain for whatever reason, it's gonna feel weird. 2) If the injury happens in a crowd, and the coach thinks something funky happened, an official is putting himself in a geographically vulnerable position, opening himself up to a whole lot of verbal attack from coach and parents that a little separation would help with. It's the very reason for #1 above.

Why?

You've got a potentially inflamatory situation with the injury. You have a delay of unknown length...but if you've sent them to the bench area, you already have decided it is not going to be quick. For all practical purposes, this is an intermission/timeout. Let them sit if they wish.

Fair enough. Got it.

Why? Standard protocol. Neither my partner nor I knew for sure when it happened if it would be a longer or shorter duration. As the whole scene played out, it did turn into a bit of an extended deal (more than a sprained ankle or a hard fall where the player take a few minutes to gather himself and head off the court), I noticed some of the players took a break for water and may have taken a seat. One or two came back over to check on their teammate. The other team looked on. No big deal.

Had the official been standing at the other end of the court I never would have approached him. To me, THAT would have been crossing a line. But since he was right there, and I didn't raise my voice or do any crazy body movements, I thought it was ok.
As for the dad, considering his girl weighs in the in the upper 200's and he picked her up and carried her off, let's just say I LIKE IT when I am on his good side!!! I just made sure I was between him and the other teams bench and prayed that he wouldn't do anything rash as the other coach was also a real big guy. Images of the new "What would you do for a Klondike ice cream sandwich" commercials were in my head!!

I'm not sure if this was serious... But if we eject someone, and Game Admin refuses to enforce, we're done.

Obviously you only work in pristine air-conditioned conditions with newly painted walls where everyone is cheerful and just there for the kids. In real life - letting parents come on the court is just asking for an escalation of the situation.

Let me present a scenario.

A1 lands on a teammate's foot and tumbles into the wall, hitting his head knocking him unconscious. As you turn to beckon the coach, Dad comes running down the bleachers making a bee line for his son. His focus never leaves his child, he never so much as looks at the officials.

Take away the unconscious child, and now let's make it just the ankle or knee sprain from landing on his teammate's foot. Dad comes down to tend to his son, who is screaming in pain. Whatchagonnado?

I think we can agree that this scenario is a huge departure from what we were talking about.

The original situation included an already incensed parent. Big difference

However, I still maintain that having parents (fans, girlfriends, uncles, whatever) coming out of the stands onto the court is asking for trouble.

Start with - how in the world do YOU know this guy is his dad? Move on to - "Dad's" concern for his son begins to abate as he's being tended to, then he
decides it's YOUR fault for letting the game get out of control (or whatever).

Coaches and players know what is expected of them, behavior-wise, and know there are repercussions for crossing the line. Parents, fans, etc do not. You may get away with this 99 times. Then you may sincerely regret the 100th.

....which is another reason why i'm hesitant to see officials touch a kid for any reason (even tho, in some situations like relaxed summer ball - it may not be as big a deal). we never really know who we are dealing with. said player's dad could be a psycho, over protective, my johnny is my world nutbag.

It's a departure from the OP, but it's the precise scenario that was being discussed, tacitly. This was a re-hash of a previous discussion in which one long time poster, Nevadaref, has said he would not only have the parent ejected from the game but would also assess a T to the home team for exhibiting poor game management.

Now, I agree with #1.
As for #2, how do you know he's not a doctor? Frankly, I'm not getting close enough to find out because I don't care. As long as he's simply tending to the player, it's not my business. As soon as he addresses me with anything other than, "Do you know the number to the nearest urgent care facility?" it's over and I'm deferring to either game management or the player's coach (if GM is not available.)

I ask again, rather than just get snarky with BktBallRef, why don't you tell us how you would handle the situation?

Because he was seen in the parking lot driving a Yugo. :p

We can talk about possible psycho scenarios, and why not to get involved, all day long. If this dad really is a psycho, then simply touching his little johnny isn't the only reason he could get upset, he could also come running out of the stands to confront you when his kid got fouled and you didn't call it, costing his team the summer league 3rd place trophy. Or whatever.

The point is, if we act reasonably, there is no reason to fear any coach or parent when it comes to an injury. Almost all of the time there is someone more qualified than me to take care of any injuries, so I'm not involved in any way other than managing the game. If there's a chance I can help a severely injured player in any way, I'm helping, even if it's just to make them more comfortable until actual help arrives. If an adult comes out on the floor to tend to an injured kid, that's fine by me, and I'm not asking for an ID to see if they're a parent or specific relative. If they decide that's the time to take a free shot at any of the officiating crew, then they've bought themselves an early exit. It's not that hard.

And, I would say acting reasonable in most situations would be to dispatch a runner for a bag of ice, call a coach in and/or walk away.

Risk automatically reduced.

If they do or say something out of line towards me - I'm with you, they get an early exit. Problem solved.

In short, I agree with your take, M&M.

Mike, here's the thread that Tony is commenting on. You have to read it to see why he made his reponse.

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...-t-up-fan.html

In the context of the discussion, not very many posters disagreed with BktBallRef's take.

This would be the only line I might have a slight disagreement with. I don't think we should base our actions simply on the less risky approach, but rather what's right. Most of the time what's right is to let other more qualified people handle injuries and situations outside the game itself. But I'm not going to remove myself from a situation simply to avoid risk.

A simple, game-related question: would you base a call on what would provide less risk? Perhaps a call that coaches and players would be less likely to get upset about? Or do you make the right call, even knowing someone may get upset?

An injury-related story and question - just recently there was an accident on a local highway where a trucker took his eyes off the road and didn't see the traffic stopped in front of him for road construction. He plowed into several vehicles, and one of them caught fire. In an interview with one person who ran up and pulled one of the people out of the burning vehicle, he was surprised at the people who stood there, not helping, because they were afraid of doing something wrong and getting sued. 3 people left in the vehicle ended up dying. Given the Good Samaratin law on the books, how many of those 3 might've lived had people done the right thing, rather than worried about doing the thing that was less risky to them?

I'm on board with that logic, because what is right is right! Right? The flip side, which you and I often have to consider is - sometimes doing the "right thing" isn't going to be viewed as "the right thing" by certain people. I'm with you, let's be there to facilitate help and healing. Let's also remember that even when we, as officials, do the "right thing", there is still a very real possibility that we will be scorned for it by some. I just want to stay out of trouble.

We aren't talking about how to handle an injured player any longer, are we? To answer the question, not necessarily (probably never). My approach to officiating any game is guided more by how my partner(s) and I have determined we should manage that particular game. We don't have big pow wows before summer league games, for instance, but there is a general expectation/anticipation towards how we will manage/call those games. Choosing the path of "less risky" calls can get, well, uh, risky. :)

Different situation....life and death. I've never been a part of that on a basketball court. I'm sure my "less risk" approach would go right out the window, though, if someone's life was in fact on the line and I knew I could help.

I believe it far more likely that you'd have more trouble in trying to stop a parent from tending to their child.

If he is not his dad or a medically trained person or is simply looking for trouble, that will become evident quick enough. I'm going to be far enough away from the injury to make that obvious.

Now who is departing from the original scenario? :rolleyes:

And so what if he's not his Dad? Are you going check ID?