Flagrant Technicals
 

I haven't had the experience of issuing a flagrant technical, nor do I really desire it, but I'll issue it if necessary. In your opinions, where do you believe is the line between the usual and the flagrant technical?

I believe it's in 4-19-4. You must know the definition before you can apply your judgment.

ART. 4 . . . A flagrant foul may be a personal or technical foul of a violent or savage nature, or a technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable conduct. It may or may not be intentional. If personal, it involves, but is not limited to violent contact such as: striking, kicking and kneeing. If technical, it involves dead-ball contact or noncontact at any time which is extreme or persistent, vulgar or abusive conduct. Fighting is a flagrant act.

One example: Player yells at me "That's a bullsh!t call!" = Technical...player yells at me "F@ck you!!" = Flagrant T.

Another example: after whistle for a foul, players get in each other's faces and jaw at each other = Tecnicals...players get in each other's faces and one slams forearm into chin of the other = Flagrant T.

I think the bottom line here is that you will know it when you see it.

Niiiice! They do seem to call themselves.

Now these are what I mean by "lines." Excellent examples. Any others?

Yes. A1 is fouled by B1 in the act of shooting. A1 turns around to B1 and they both push each other in the chest. Technicals. A1 smacks B1 upside the head with a frying pan. Flagrant technical. B1 retaliates by dropping a 50 pound weight on A1's head. Flagrant technical. Coach A looks at me crosseyed. Flagrant technical.

Why is this the image that pops into my mind whenever Padgett talks about his games?

http://images2.fanpop.com/images/pho...83-800-600.jpg

Sure...

Coach does not like my partner - Bhuck Elics - call and jumps up yelling at us = T...coach jumps up yelling and throws his clipboard out onto the court = Flagrant T.

Player gets fouled on lay-up attempt. Turns to defender and yells in his face = T. Player gets fouled during lay-up attempt, tunrs to defender and throws the ball into his face = Flagrant T.

Player dunks over defender and turns to defender and taunts him = T. Player dunks over defender, turns and two-hand shoves him to the floor = Flagrant T.

That is the same example people give for pornography and that ends up with different judgments on what that is. There are many things I have heard people claim they would give a flagrant for that I would never call myself.

Peace

Exactly. That's why I started this discussion, to compare/contrast lines.

I was thinking that. ROFLMAO!

MTD, Sr.

Calling me a cheater will probably get you sent to the bus early. Of course it is all contextual to me. I had a youth football game (different sport but the example still works) where a player on the defense did not like a call one of my fellow officials made and was telling his teammates that that we were cheating them. I dropped a flag for unsportsmanlike conduct on him but did not rule it flagrant.

I had a quick chat with his coach also and explained what the flag was for and that it isn't going to be tolerated. Coach was apologetic and the offensing player was quiet the rest of the game. Message delivered.

Now if a basketball coach is on the sideline screaming at us that we are cheating them...well, that coach just punched his own ticket. I think if a player on a basketball court were to do what the player in my football game did, I would handle it with just a T. But of course, it depends not only what the message they are delivering is, but how they deliver it.

I was not quoting anyone or a particular case. And I really was not referring to Jacobellis v. Ohio which is the case Justice Potter Stewart made the comments about obscenity. The issue was about pornographic images and the standards in a particular community in Ohio. And the issue has been litigated a few times since the original case the Supreme Court ruled on from everything from an issue with the group 2 Live Crew in the 90s and even a book called Lady Chatterly's Lover was also an issue for the court. The issue of obscenity might have been talked about, but at the core it was what pornography could and could not be displayed or consumed by the public in certain communities. Now if you did not know that, maybe you should not comment what I have to say. After all I am going to school in this area of social science. :rolleyes:

Peace

You're majoring in pornography?

Cool!!

Ummm, what do ya have to do for exams?:confused:

Would it be inappropriate to ask if they are oral exams?

I know you are being funny, but actually Political Science, which is the study of government structure, laws and many courses and issues dealing with the Supreme Court and the cases they heard and did not hear. Actually I have taken several law courses in and out of my major that dealt with the law and issues like this.

I think some people think this is a rulebook discussion where only one word matters when it comes to the law or the legal issues. ;)

Peace

Even as we speak, Lindsay Lohan is rehearsing for her next starring role.

It's true,it's true......

The anvil obviously weighs more than 50 pounds. :rolleyes:

Nevada,

It does not matter. Can we discuss the play and situation this was about, not a completely unrelated issue that no one cares about but you right now?

Peace

Taking a little thunder from another thread ("BS" at an official, Celtics/Magic), Rocky said he drew the line between a player saying B.S. and F.U.

My question is, if a player is using any language that would require editing on a message board, wouldn't that itself constitute a flagrant T (vulgar AND abusive)?

No. Context and who the comments are directed towards is a factor for me. If a player says something after hurting their knee is going to be different if they are directing comments to me as an official. Even if it is something we would not allow on this very board to be used.

Peace

There are no absolutes or always in what we do. Live in the grey!

The answer depends on the level being officiated plus the direction that you are being given at that level.

What gets a player T'd up in a high school game might be overlooked in a D1 game. And the same for D1 vs. NBA. Add in the different tolerance levels of officials and you ain't gonna get a hard'n'fast rule at any level imo.

What you can do is be consistent with your own tolerance level...at the level that you're officiating... and let the players and coachs adjust to you.

JMO...

Fine. Unnecessary posts deleted.

Rut is absolutely right about the level (and context) having to do with it. In our local rec league, any profanity (regardless of how intended and/or used) by a player or coach is a flagrant technical and demands ejection. We put sportsmanship above everything else (along with player safety, of course). The only exception to that rule is at the HS level, we have the discretion to issue a standard T if we so desire, but not in 3rd thru 8th grade.

A few years ago, I had a kid swear during one of these games. I went to the table and told the book guy to record the flagrant T. He put his arms across his chest and said "No." I stared at him for a moment and told him again. He said he wouldn't because the kid was his son and he knew his son "would never swear". My response? "Coach, we need someone new for the book over here".

+1
I have a shorter tolerance at local AAU tournaments then I do at the college level. While it is a sliding scale, there are of course definites. FU, being one of them!!
On a side note, I once had a college coach say loudly, but not too loudly "Youre the ******* that called our last game." I said "Be careful coach, I am adopted so who knows, you could be talking to your brother or uncle!". Didn't have much to say after that! Had that happened on a lower level, I may have whacked em. Since it was a higher level, not loud enough for everyone to hear and a situation I felt I could handle, I let it slide. And if she would have come back with a clever comment of her own, I would have let it go and chalked it up. The difference being, I have to see her and that team probably more, so going with the diplomatic approach IMO, was a best first step. In AAU, I don't know em, won't see em again, so less rope.

(BTW, yes I AM adopted. My parents always said when I was a teenager it was a good thing they lost the receipt!!)

Going to call at an independent men's tournament tonight through Saturday. I will probably have the opportunity to call one of every imaginable T before it's over.

That's a given in men's wreck. Take an extra whistle because you'll probably wear one out. :o