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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 29, 2010, 11:18am
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Take a great call to the table in a weak manner in a camp or any evaluation sitch & you'll see.

Decision makers at the next levels are looking for Rs not U2s.
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Old Thu Apr 29, 2010, 11:20am
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Originally Posted by tref View Post
Have you ever seen a CC go down the toilet because of the officials weak presentation to the table?
Or an IC not be questioned whatsoever because of the officials verbal at the spot & a strong presentation?

Thats what I mean by "selling the call" NOT hopping all over the court & those type of antics.
We have to be believable JR or nobodys gonna buy our act. I've seen "that guy" and boy do they have long nights when nobody is buying their act.
I can tell you this, the coach, in my experience, is no more nor less likely to question a shooting foul call based on the timing of the whistle; and if you don't have a good answer for the coach's question, that will be the reason the crap hits the fan. If it's even close, the coach is going to question you to make sure you know what you're doing, and he's watching the shooter.
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Old Thu Apr 29, 2010, 11:35am
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
I can tell you this, the coach, in my experience, is no more nor less likely to question a shooting foul call based on the timing of the whistle; and if you don't have a good answer for the coach's question, that will be the reason the crap hits the fan. If it's even close, the coach is going to question you to make sure you know what you're doing, and he's watching the shooter.
Thats because we're so inconsistent when it comes to putting players on the line, especially at the HS level here in CO.

"Coach he began the habitual motion which preceeds the shot well before the foul occured", always works for me Snaqs.
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Old Thu Apr 29, 2010, 11:45am
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As someone who does almost an equal amount of Pro-AM to HS/NCAA games, I can tell you that while you may be assuming they are similar, the rule is significantly different in that the gather is NOT the beginning of the habitual motion as defined under NCAA/NFHS -- I do agree that with a patient whistle you can allow the player to get INTO his habitual motion... but make sure you understand they are different (sometimes by maybe a second at most - but an important distinction)
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Old Thu Apr 29, 2010, 11:53am
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I work Pro-AM as well Bradford.

You are absolutely correct by rule book definition, but let me ask you this, once a player gathers (at any level) on a drive to the bucket, what are they doing next??

Timing
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Old Thu Apr 29, 2010, 12:01pm
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I try not to use the word 'habitual' when calling girls/women's games. It may come out wrong or be heard incorrectly. But that is just me!!
I had an evaluator tell me once the question I have to ask in that situation is "What the hell else are they going/able to do with the ball?"
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Old Thu Apr 29, 2010, 12:12pm
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Bingo!
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 29, 2010, 12:41pm
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Originally Posted by tref View Post
I work Pro-AM as well Bradford.

You are absolutely correct by rule book definition, but let me ask you this, once a player gathers (at any level) on a drive to the bucket, what are they doing next??

Timing
As I said, 100% agree a patient whistle is key on plays to the basket. You weren't differentiating on understanding the difference when it comes to definition.

And the answer, after they gather they are going to begin their habitual motion and thus HAVENT began their habitual motion at the gather :-p
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Old Thu Apr 29, 2010, 01:43pm
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Originally Posted by tref View Post
I work Pro-AM as well Bradford.

You are absolutely correct by rule book definition, but let me ask you this, once a player gathers (at any level) on a drive to the bucket, what are they doing next??
Shooting, passing, holding the ball or calling a timeout. Or maybe traveling. And it's up to you to decide which one they're doing/did.

Don't confuse a patient whistle with a patient decision. They're completely different concepts. You can blow your whistle immediately for an obvious foul but still wait to see the result of the foul before deciding whether it was of the "shooting" variety or not.

A patient whistle usually means that you're deciding whether the contact actually was a foul or whether it was incidental contact. And no matter how long you delay the whistle, if it is a foul you're still going to have to make the exact same decision as to whether the foul was in the act-of-shooting or not.

Last edited by Jurassic Referee; Thu Apr 29, 2010 at 01:46pm.
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Old Thu Apr 29, 2010, 01:47pm
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Originally Posted by tref View Post
Thats because we're so inconsistent when it comes to putting players on the line, especially at the HS level here in CO.

"Coach he began the habitual motion which preceeds the shot well before the foul occured", always works for me Snaqs.
Agreed that it's not well applied; I've seen the shot waved off too many times, and that's exactly why coaches question it when we count a basket and/or award free throws when the foul occurs early in the shooting motion.
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Old Thu Apr 29, 2010, 06:39pm
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Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee View Post
A patient whistle usually means that you're deciding whether the contact actually was a foul or whether it was incidental contact.
Exactly, having a patient whistle allows me to see the play through to the finish vs. popping on initial contact while the play is still developing. For me, its just enough time to actualy rewind the play & see it again before putting air in it. I hear thats the best way to help decrease your INC/ICC %.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee View Post
And no matter how long you delay the whistle, if it is a foul you're still going to have to make the exact same decision as to whether the foul was in the act-of-shooting or not.
I believe the purpose & timing of the patient whistle eliminates the "or not." How & what we do at the spot of the foul & at the table sells the decision we just made to the players/coaches/fans. We get the most pushback after a call has been made because the clocks not running. No calls are easier, we keep it moving Having great court presence assists in mangaing the emotions of the game, no?

Well, thats what I see the big dogs doing anyway.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Agreed that it's not well applied; I've seen the shot waved off too many times, and that's exactly why coaches question it when we count a basket and/or award free throws when the foul occurs early in the shooting motion.
Okay so its not just me It really makes for an inconsistent called game, unfortunately.
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Old Fri Apr 30, 2010, 04:20am
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Originally Posted by bradfordwilkins View Post
As someone who does almost an equal amount of Pro-AM to HS/NCAA games, I can tell you that while you may be assuming they are similar, the rule is significantly different in that the gather is NOT the beginning of the habitual motion as defined under NCAA/NFHS -- I do agree that with a patient whistle you can allow the player to get INTO his habitual motion... but make sure you understand they are different (sometimes by maybe a second at most - but an important distinction)
That was precisely the point which I was making to tref earlier in this thread, but he insists that he has no difficulty with the distinction at the different levels. Personally, I believe that he is applying the principles of the pro game at the HS and college levels.
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Old Fri Apr 30, 2010, 04:23am
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You weren't differentiating on understanding the difference when it comes to definition.

And the answer, after they gather they are going to begin their habitual motion and thus HAVENT began their habitual motion at the gather
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 30, 2010, 09:59am
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Nevada, I agree with bradfordwilkins on the differences between when the act of shooting begins from amature to pro levels too. IMO the timing of whistle is whats most important as the difference is only a second. We tend to pop too soon & interupt the game. I'm sure we've all had the play where there is contact on the drive & the player goes right thru it & scores with ease. Now we're giving cheap and1s or worse, interupting the game to administer do overs.

I wouldn't say I'm applying pro principles at the amature level, just the pro mindset as basketball is basketball.

I'm not saying drives equal FTs each & every time, I'll put em OOB when the play dictates. But I'm always looking for a reason to reward the player with FTs. It's been working for me.

For the record, I posted here as CH1town previously, changed my email addy & my account locked up.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 30, 2010, 02:21pm
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Originally Posted by tref View Post
IMO the timing of whistle is whats most important as the difference is only a second. We tend to pop too soon & interupt the game. I'm sure we've all had the play where there is contact on the drive & the player goes right thru it & scores with ease. Now we're giving cheap and1s or worse, interupting the game to administer do overs.
And imo you still don't understand the concept being discussed. You blow your whistle when a foul occurs. Period. If the contact didn't affect the play, it's incidental and you don't blow your whistle. The timing of your whistle depends on when you determine a foul should be called. Period!

Again, all a "patient whistle" is doing is determining whether a foul actually occurred on any particular play. And determining whether the foul was of the shooting variety or not does NOT depend on the timing of the whistle either. There is no correlation at all between the two. Determining whether the foul was of the shooting variety or not is yet another different judgment to be made when calling the foul.

You judge whether a foul should be called on a play using advantage/disdavantage, incidental contact and other principles. You then have to make another judgment as to what kind of foul it should be.

Methinks you don't really understand pro principles either. They ain't really different when it comes to a patient whistle. They use them the same way that people at the NFHS/NCAA levels do also. What you're describing is a problem with officials blowing their whistles before they have had enough time to determine whether the contact was actually illegal or not. And that's an individual problem that needs to be pointed out to them so they can work on it.

You're needlessly making a fairly simple concept difficult imo.
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