B1 deflect a A1 pass, ball go backcourt
 

if B1 touch the ball backourt, is it backourt violaiont? or because its only deflection and not control in the ball its not violation.

If B1 deflects the ball into the backcourt, without the ball touching anyone else, it wouldn't be a violation for A1 to pick it up.

This is all assuming A1 had team control of course.

If B1 deflects a pass from A1 to A2, and A3 touches it before it goes into the back court, then is the first to touch it in the back court, you would have a violation.

Rule of Thumb:

1. Team control
2. Last to touch in frontcourt
3. First to touch in backcourt

Actual rule:
1. Team control.
2. Ball gains FC status.
3. Team with control is last to touch before it goes to the backcourt.
4. Team with control is first to touch after it goes to the backcourt.

With your rule of thumb, there are violations that would be missed. For one, there is no requirement that the team in control actually touch the ball in the FC for a violation to occur.

1) Team Control
2) Ball in front court
3) Last to touch before ball goes to BC
4) First to touch after ball goes to BC

Let me explain the case
 

The ball is in team A control and they start to move from their backourt. the ball is in team B FC (team A BC). A1 try to pass to A2. B1 is in team B FC and he deflect the ball and the ball goes to team B BC. B2 touch the ball BC. violation?

B1 was the last to touch (deflect) FC
B2 was the first to touch BC.

But what about control? deflection (slap the ball with one hand) is control?

The deflection was not (as described) team control. Team control starts when there's first player control. Player control starts when a player is holding or dribbling the ball inbounds.

(The above is FED / NCAA. FIBA might be different.)

Bob - I'm sure you meant a live ball inbounds. Sorry. I'm just feeling nit-picky today.

Thanks for the help.

FIBA that's back court . . .

There is a rule of thumb we use around here to help explain player control. If the player requests a time-out, would you grant the time-out. If not, then player control did not exist. Without player control occuring at some point, there is no team control.

Really? Team control with FC status isn't required? Other FIBA officials concur?

Not a FIBA official but from their ruble book:

Art. 14 Control of the ball
14.1 Team control starts when a player of that team is in control of a live ball because he is holding or dribbling it or has a live ball at his disposal.

10.2 The ball becomes live when:
• During the jump ball, the ball is legally tapped by a jumper.
• During a free throw, the ball is at the disposal of the free-throw shooter.
• During a throw-in, the ball is at the disposal of the player taking the throw-in.

Art. 30 Ball returned to the backcourt
30.1 Definition
30.1.1 The ball goes into a team's backcourt when:
• It touches the backcourt.
• It touches a player or an official who has part of his body in contact with the backcourt.

30.1.2 The ball has been illegally returned to the backcourt when a player of the team in control of the live ball is:

• The last to touch the ball in his frontcourt, after which that player or a teammate is the first to touch the ball in the backcourt.
• The last to touch the ball in his backcourt, after which the ball touches the frontcourt and then is first touched by that player or team-mate in the
backcourt.

This restriction applies to all situations in a team's frontcourt, including throw-ins. However, it does not apply to a player who jumps from his frontcourt, establishes new team control while still airborne and then lands in his team’s backcourt.

30.2 Rule
A player whose team is in control of a live ball may not cause the ball to be illegally returned to his backcourt.

Interesting, it's worded differently (providing situations where a violation in NFHS would not be a violation in FIBA), but it appears this particular situation (the OP) would not be a violation in FIBA.

Aha...Haha. I see what you did there.

Totally unintentional hahaha :p

Maybe misunderstood the op.

B1 touches the ball in B1's front court (A Backcourt) tipping it into B's back court into the hands of B2 in B's backcourt.


I think the issue that hanging me up here is whether the ball has established team control for B in B's front court. I understand that holding or dribbling may not have occurred but as I'm envisioning it would now totally depend on timing, intent and actually seeing the play. I may be splitting hairs but in a world of tip passing, knock down dribbles, one hand passes, drop passes and players being allowed to tip the ball up the length of the floor to themselves without dribbling what constitutes a pass, dribble, deflection, tip, or pass gets grey. If I player can tip the ball to himself or a teammate I would say his team is in control despite it not being a hold or dribble.

Now if he just deflected a pass and it ended up being picked up by a teammate in the ensuing scramble to back court thats one thing, if he's popping the ball out into the hands of waiting teammate that smacks of pass. I can see situations where I would call backcourt and not call it having re-read the op. I think of changing language of picks up/goes to, deflection, one hand slap, etc ,etc I may not be envisioning this the same way as others.

To sum up if it is just a deflection or stray ball that happens to be picked up by a teammate then no. If they player is "tipping" or slapping the ball away to a teammate I'm calling backcourt.

I just worked through a lot of stuff there in my head and writing it out. I'll shut up now.

You can call it a backcourt, but unless he holds it or dribbles it, player control has not been established by rule. Now, if the ball rests in his hand during the process, I'd say it's control, but it would have to be obvious that he held it.

So if a player can catch and shoot it .4 seconds but only redirect or tip to score with less .39 of a sec or less. How long would the ball have to be in contact with his hand for us to deem he "held" a ball.

I'm half joking here since it now sounds like I"m being a jerk.

As been pointed out before, a rule of thumb is if you would grant a timeout, then you have player control and thus team control. It's a judgment call, and that's why we get paid the BIG bucks! :D

You're going to down the right track; but the fact is it's a judgment call. The way I see it, it has to be an obvious "hold" to consider it a violation. Just as in an end of game scenario, it would have to be obvious before I'd wave off a shot taken before the horn sounded.

Not a jerk at all; unless you have a guilty conscience. ;)