Duke/Baylor
 

Couple things...

The charge/block - I thought Zuback was JUST there, so good call.

Looks like Scott Thornley came in with a T on Quincy Acy in that scrum with about a minute left. Thoughts?

I think if your gonna call that and it was clear enough that i don't disagree, you also need to call any comment or swinging and pushing that occurs in that scrum. To pick out one poor overreaction over another, particularly at that point seems excessively punitive.

on the charging I said charging right away, replay showed it could have gone either way. I thought it was a double T before the commercial break which would have been fine. I'd rather have the refs not give a T to only one side there but no biggie and unlikely to be that controversial.
I give the Baylor coach credit for not getting after the refs. In the games I saw he hardly seems to disagree at all compared to the other coaches.
That Duke PG was awesome.
my ideal final even though I picked Duke to make it: WV vs Butler.

y'all shoulda been in the chat room during the game......

I don't believe that a T was called prior to the crew consulting the monitor. Upon video review a T was charged to Acy for intentional contact with an opponent during a dead ball.

There most definitely was. The official was screened from the camera on the replay, but you could see him distinctly pick up his whistle and make the signal for "T"

Thornley observed the scrum and nailed Acy for a "third man in" bump on the Duke player.

I'd be inclined to agree with pantherdreams - for the two guys involved in the original scrum. The third guy in has no excuse.

The video confirms your thought.
I was able to pause the mmod.ncaa.com video with Acy's left foot still on the floor and Zoubek in position with both of his feet on the floor inside the lane and his torso facing Acy. He got there just in the nick of time.

There wasn't a great deal of contact. It was a glancing blow as the shooter jumped back towards the middle of the lane, but the contact was in the chest area of the defender and he smartly went down.

Okay, I'll check the video and see if I can find that.

Edit...

Yep, Thornley does whistle and give the T signal, but he does it twice. There is a tap-tap, before he points to Acy, which looks like a double-T at first.

I will say that I don't like him making the call of a T here when his partner is the one who jumps between Acy and Smith and has the best vantage point on the situation. I believe that he should have left the decision on how to handle it to him.

I saw the Zoubek play. How close was he to the restricted area? My memory is failing me.

about 5 feet.

He is one foot inside the lane line and parallel to it. He would have been outside of the NBA circle.

This is one situation where it may have been useful for Thornley to keep his eyes forward instead of looking at the bench while granting the timeout.

On the replay you can see he has a wide-angle view of the third guy coming into the fray.

I don't know that you couldn't pass on the T - but I don't think you can necessarily call it incorrect, either by rule, or in terms of crew mechanics.

The T call was a good call. The first Duke player (with the ball) was simply trying to get out of being physically harassed. The second player, was trying to get him out of there -- neither committed a foul of any kind. The Baylor thug (and I'm a Baylor supporter in general, but not of their basketball programs) came in and for no reason pushed the second Duke player who was holding the first.

I said immediately it was a T and wondered if they were going to call it. Had it been the first Baylor player (actually there were 2 guarding, so pick one) who was either trying to foul or trying to steal, assuming he was contacted unintentionally by the Duke player with the ball, that makes a simple, "get out of my space" subtle push, I *might* let that go. But I don't let a player out of the play come in and start trouble. THAT is how fights happen. Usually, the two guys tangled up quickly forgive and forget. There are exceptions, of course, but its almost always the 3rd or 4th guy coming in that escalate things, and that HAS to be penalized.

I agree with your assessment. I agree with Acy getting a T on the play. He absolutely came in and unnecessarily started trouble.
I only wonder if Thornley stepped on his partner's toes there as his partner was between Acy and Smith.

In the end it doesn't seem to matter as the right call was made, but I think that I would have consulted with my partner before pulling the trigger.

I thought that maybe his partner was a little too close to the action and didn't see everything develop. Sometimes in these types of situations, the official that isn't in the middle of things gets a better look at everything going on. I thought Thornley did the right thing in not getting into the middle of things and letting the other two officials break things up, watching the whole play, and then dealing with it. I think they got it right. Just my opinion of course.

The block/charge was a GREAT call, tough one at a tough time of the game. Thats why those guys are out there and I'm sitting at home watching.

Not possible.

If you watch the replay, his partner comes running in from afar. The action which warranted the T had already taken place when he arrived. He was simply preventing an escalation of the matter.

Was he possibly focused on getting the players separated and didn't see the whole play? I just thought Thornley was sitting back, in a good position to see it all, and took care of business.

I thought that he ran over in response to the altercation, not prior to it.

If that is the case, then he would have likely observed the action from an even better angle than Thornley, but as I said already, in the end, the right call was made.

The charge...while I agree with the call, it was not consistent with a how they've been called in many of the games I've watched. I've seen call after call go to a block when the defender had better position.

The T...no question. Correct call.

You mean like the 2 blocks called on Prince from Tennessee within 3 seconds yesterday? The second one, especially, I thought would've been a strong PC foul.

Am I wrong or should a Duke player (Thomas, I think) been called for basket interference? Instead the two points were counted and a defensive foul called resulting in a 3 point play.

This came up for discussion in the chat room during the game.......

Some said, "by rule"...... others said, "but in this situation, no way you call it".......

Lots of great stuff.

I do agree with the T on Acy for the reasons stated, I just have trouble believing that if a player comes from afar to defend a teammate (however misguided and inappropriate) and a scrum ensues with people jawing and bumping, that there is nothing else T worthy going on. If you are going to penalize one participant who reacted badly to the situation at point then you need to penalize anyone who did or said something.

The guys in the original huddle around the ball I'm ok with they just had some trouble breaking up and in a normal circumstance a quick discussion with them would be fine. However extra guy in pushing whack, every extra guy after that pushing or talking trash particularly any cursing really has to be called so that everyone gets the message. IMO

Him bumping and then getting bumped back as guys step in and start barking and talking (granted the official got between before a real shove or push back coudl happen, he got sandwiched when the Duke player stepped forward) needs to be dealt with or your basically calling the equivalent of an insitgator penalty in hockey and breaking everyone else up.

If the Baylor kid bumps and the Duke player goes down and everyone is indignant and seperating them fine. Form my vantage point (The TV it lookd like the Duke kid is going back into say some things and get his lick in when the ref stops the physical interaction. More jawing continues. I can't here what being said so maybe its not provacative in nature or cursing. Since i wasn't there I can't tell I just find it hard to believe the only thing T worthy occuring in that scrum was the first push.

Why is the baylor player a 'thug'?:(

I'm not having that hard a time believing it; I'll assume without evidence to the contrary that the officials called the Ts that needed called. They got the instigator, and no one else did anything that jumped out and begged for a T. We often talk about how it's unfair to penalize two guys equally when one obviously started the mess. I like how they dealt with it.

I say charge on the that play, because he had position and Double T on the scrum.

Because Texas A&M versus Baylor is a pretty heated rivalry, there's no love lost between those two teams and especially their fans.

Double T?
 

For those that said Double T, who on Duke deserved a T and why?

Pick one.
Why? For choosing Duke.

Seriously, though, good question.

I would assume Scheyer for swinging his elbows (with no contact) after the initial foul was called, at which point a Baylor player retaliated by giving him a little shove.

Then give those two a double T, and Acy gets his very own.

Yep, Acy's T was totally separate from the action that is being debated as a possible Double T.

You are saying 3 T's ?

Most that said double T, wanted Acy and a Dukie to get one.

That's how I was reading them, too.

Problem with that is that Baylor committed 2 "shoves" during the dead ball period. One on Scheyer after he swung his elbows, then one on Smith a few seconds later.

Agreed.....

Don't know if there are any differences between NCAA and NFHS on this or not, but in NFHS there are only 3 ways to lose a legal guarding position--1) move toward the ball handler at the time of contact; 2) ball handler gets head and shoulders past front of torso of defender; 3) defender is out of bounds. The contact on the front of the torso is a clear indicator of legal guarding position for a non-shooting ball handler, the fact he was moving backwards at the time means he wasn't moving forward, and he was clearly inbounds. 2nd was easily PC and I'm pretty sure the 1st would have been as well.

In the Duke/Baylor call, Zubek never got the front of his torso facing him, clearly indicated in the fact that the contact was in the "side-panel" area of the jersey (Zubek was definitely not turning to absorb contact). Block.

You must have seen a different play than I did.

Check out post #9 in this thread. I went and watch the video on mmod.ncaa.com and can state with certainty that your opinion of the play is not accurate. Go watch the video. He is square to Acy before he jumps, the contact is not directly through Zoubek's chest because Acy jumps at an angle across the defender.

And me. No friggin way did it happen like that.

There was no foul called. It was a timeout.

And Scheyer swung his elbows simultaneous with the ref blowing the whistle, not after the whistle.

The case for a T on Scheyer is weak at best. If you want to go with a double T, you're better of sticking Nolan Smith with one, as he got a small, one-handed shove on Acy after the shove that did earn the T.