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-   -   9 players on the floor. (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/57415-9-players-floor.html)

The R Thu Mar 04, 2010 08:36am

9 players on the floor.
 
Here is the play as it was described to me.

Boys HS JV
Warning horn sounds to signify end of timeout. T gives go ahead point to L who puts the ball in the play. After the ball becomes live L and A5 realize that there are only 9 players on the floor. The A5, who had been on the floor before the timeout, runs onto the floor from the bench during a live ball and joins into the action. A5 does not gain any specific advantage such as a snow bird or blind side steal.

Officials stop the game and charge A5 with a techincal foul.
Following the game 2 varsity officials ask what happened then say since there was no advantage when A5 ran onto the floor and they were a player before the timeout that it should have been a no call. They also said there was a play in the case book about this situation.

I can't seem to find it.
Thoughts and reactions?

Raymond Thu Mar 04, 2010 08:53am

Don't have my books but I'm quite sure there is a case play that says this play is legal.

bob jenkins Thu Mar 04, 2010 09:01am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 666186)
Don't have my books but I'm quite sure there is a case play that says this play is legal.

NOT legal if following a TO. 10.1.9

Legal if following a "lengthy substitution process." 10.3.2B

The officials in the OP got it right (well, they got it right after putting the ball in play, but for me to chide them for that would be the pot calling the kettle black).

Gargil Thu Mar 04, 2010 09:06am

case book 10.3.2 situation B: No technical should be issued if no unfair advantage was gained.

Thumper68 Thu Mar 04, 2010 09:06am

Case 10.3.2 Sit. B is very close to this scenario. It speaks to lengthy substitution situation instead of time out. I think as described in the OP the play is legal.

Thumper68 Thu Mar 04, 2010 09:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gargil (Post 666193)
case book 10.3.2 situation B: No technical should be issued if no unfair advantage was gained.


Apparently Gargil types faster that me:D

Gargil Thu Mar 04, 2010 09:20am

I had both fingers flying across the keyboard:D

just another ref Thu Mar 04, 2010 09:39am

We just had this discussion very recently. It is confusing that the case play 10.1.9 is written to indicate advantage gained, but this is not specified by the rule. The rule states this is a technical foul.

Adam Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:04am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gargil (Post 666193)
case book 10.3.2 situation B: No technical should be issued if no unfair advantage was gained.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thumper68 (Post 666194)
Case 10.3.2 Sit. B is very close to this scenario. It speaks to lengthy substitution situation instead of time out. I think as described in the OP the play is legal.

Did you guys read 10.1.9 as Bob pointed to?

BTW, I'm not sure they got it right if they charged the T to A5. It should have been a team T. Section 10-1 is Team Technicals, and the rule broken is 10-1-9.

Gargil Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:18am

What if there were multiple substitutions during the timeout. It seems to me that the intent of the rule is to not penalize if no advantage was gained.
10.1.9 was written involving a team gaining an advantage. Would they have the same result if the case play was written so no unfair advantage was gained? Though you are correct, as written this should have been a "T"

Adam Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:23am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gargil (Post 666214)
What if there were multiple substitutions during the timeout. It seems to me that the intent of the rule is to not penalize if no advantage was gained.
10.1.9 was written involving a team gaining an advantage. Would they have the same result if the case play was written so no unfair advantage was gained? Though you are correct, as written this should have been a "T"

The case doesn't specify, frankly, that it would be different without an advantage.

Personally, if the situation happened during a timeout with multiple substitutions, I'd go with the rule for the timeout. There should be no confusion following a timeout.

More importantly, however, from the officials' perspective, count the players on the court before you put the ball in play. "Coach, we need one more."

Jurassic Referee Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:59am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 666190)
NOT legal if following a TO. 10.1.9

Legal if following a "lengthy substitution process." 10.3.2B

The officials in the OP got it right (well, they got it right after putting the ball in play, but for me to chide them for that would be the pot calling the kettle black).

+1...agree with Bob.

Two different rules covering two different situations. One situation is after a timeout with no substitution. There's no reason to give any benefit of the doubt re: any confusion in that situation. The other situation is after multiple substitutions. In that case, there could be some confusion and the rulesmakers allowed for that.

CMHCoachNRef Thu Mar 04, 2010 02:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 666234)
+1...agree with Bob.

Two different rules covering two different situations. One situation is after a timeout with no substitution. There's no reason to give any benefit of the doubt re: any confusion in that situation. The other situation is after multiple substitutions. In that case, there could be some confusion and the rulesmakers allowed for that.

JR (and Bob) are absolutely correct. I realize that Mark P already has this in another thread, but, I would really like to see consistency in the rules concerning four players. As I have stated before, I fail to see any advantage to having four players on the court -- as long as one does not "jump into the play" and gain an advantage (which is already covered by the "lengthy substitution" situation).

Eliminating these technicals would help improve game flow and game management. Too many players is illegal and, in most cases, represents a huge advantage and should be penalized. Too few players does not.


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