Pregame scouting/team tendencies
 

Do officials in your associations go over player and team tendencies in the pregame meetings?

I have been told by officials in the associations that do our games that they discuss certain tendencies to watch for about our team. Examples include,

you have to watch player #35, he has a tendency to travel before he dribbles.....Team A sets a lot of illegal screens.....#43 initiates a lot of contact when he drives, make sure not to bail him out with a foul....things like this.

I think this creates a bias going into the game.

I feel that we have some pretty good officials, but I don't see why this is necessary. Can somebody defend this?

How is knowing specifics to look for a bad thing? A bias would be making phantom calls because you expect something. Being prepared simply means knowing where to focus your attention during certain plays.

If you are already looking for certain things from certain players/teams, you are more likely to make those calls than if you were not expecting them.

For example, Player A who may have been discussed in pregame as somebody who has a tendancy to travel, is more likely to have a travel called against him than player B who may travel as much as player A, but does not receive the attention during pregame.

According to one official, we have a reputation for setting illegal screens. Trying to be as objective as possible, for a coach :), it seems that we are called for setting illegal screens for the slightest infraction and it is not called as often for from teams that do not have this label...

The point I am trying to make is,

Do you think you are more likely to make a call based on reputation, not the actual play?

On what scientific theory is this opinion based.




We have a team that traps, presses, and gambles for steals on defense while on the offensive end they cherry pick and shoot a lot of 3's. I always pre-game not to be concerned with, nor listen to the coach complain about, the foul count being out of whack. Invariably in the first half the foul count in this team's games starts out 6-1, 7-3, 8-2, etc.

I had one game this year where the entire squad was practicing an up-and-under move during lay-up drills. The move looked funny but they were not travelling. So I mentioned to my partners that we didn't want to get caught off-guard by the move and call a violation just because it looked awkward.

We regularly pre-game what players are problem children and need to be watched after the whistle.

We discuss rematches of games that had bad blood.

I will point it out if we have a team that is height-challenged and tends to do a lot of pushing and shoving when jockeying for rebounding position.

We will talk about teams who throw a lot of skip passes as part of their offense so that we are not too quick to rotate in the Lead.

A good pre-game will cover plays/scenarios/tendencies unique to the participants of that game. It helps in preparation. It helps us in our mechanics and positioning.

It's not about negativity and bias.

Let's turn it around.

Do you talk to your team about tendancies of the officials working your game? Isn't that taking advantage of your knowledge of the officials? Suppose a certain official is less likely to call three seconds, would you tell your post players to stay in the lane a little longer?

I think it's perfectly fine for officials to share as much information as they have about the teams, coaches, gym, score table personnel, and anyone else who has relevance in calling a fair game.

If there are tendencies, we need to be aware of them. Does that mean we call more of those on that particular team - not necessarily. If the team is doing it, we will make the call.

I think a better response, upon hearing what that official had to say to you Coach, would have been to figure out some drills that teach your players how to set proper screens and work on those in practice. Then the officials would not need to discuss that "tendency".

BadNewsRef,

Good reply, I think those are excellent points to go over in pre-game. I am sure our officials do the same, but personally I just don't like the fact they are looking harder at certain tendencies from particular players or teams during the game.

One thing I tell our guys is "make sure not to travel in when you are warming up" Part of this is because I want them to focus their footwork on not traveling, but part of me is afraid the officials might watch and discuss that our guys travel before they put the ball on the floor.


As a coach I just want to know that they are calling them how they see them, not calling what they are expecting based upon our players and team tendencies....

Thanks for the replies.

Perhaps if you spent more time working on correcting the tendencies that equate to violations/fouls instead of worrying about if the officials are talking about those tendencies, things would work themselves out naturally. In other words, fix the player's tendency to do illegal things. Problem will solve itself...

Stosh,

Absolutely I try to know certain tendencies of officials. Espeically the ones that I know I better keep my mouth closed :)

I never say anything to our players about the officials tendencies (this guy lets a lot go so play phsyical, or this official calls a close game so you have to stay out of foul trouble) because I think it takes their focus away from what we are trying to do and focuses it on trying to take advantage of an officials tendencies which is not the best way to win a basketball game.

Coach, I'll say this; knowing where to focus and when to focus on it can be helpful. Is there the possibility that they'll see screens on your team and miss them on others? Maybe, but typically the pre-game will include a reminder to watch the other team for it, too.

"The Cougars have a tendency to stick their leg out on screens, but let's make sure not to miss it if the Spartans do it, too." Also remember the off-ball stuff is what can turn a game real ugly real quick, so a team with that reputation is just going to be watched more closely.

Frankly, I'm more surprised that someone told you this. You've got information most coaches don't get; I'd use it in practice to fix the problem.

You are correct about that. Yes, sometimes we set moving screens and get called for them...part of the game IMO.

But, I feel that since we already have a reputation for setting illegal screens specifically, we are watched closer and get away with less than other teams that we go against. My problem is we are being more closely scrutinized for these things.

Well, that extra scrutiny will end when your players stop setting illegal screens. :D

The fact (assuming) that you get called for more illegal screens may also be the by-product of your team setting more screens than other teams, thus creating more opportunties for the foul to be called.

Are the calls correct? When you do get called for an illegal screen, is it an illegal screen? If so, what are you really complaining about? You use the phrase "get away with less" as if you are thinking you should be able to "get way" with more illegal activity. That's just an odd argument, in my opinion.

Stop your kids from setting illegal screens - teach them the proper way to set a screen - and I guarantee that you will be called for less of them. :)

To the letter of the rule...yes probably correct.....but the same is not called on other teams that I scout or coach against. So yes, we get away with less "illegal activity" than other teams which creates an advantage for them.

Didn't want to turn this thread into a post about my team setting illegal screens, just wanted everyones opinion on pre-game tendencies.

I know my opinion of them, but everyone has made some valid points as well. Thanks for the comments....don't agree on the pre-game scouting as far as team and player tendencies (not including dirty players), but nonetheless, I think everyone has raised some good points.

No. And I don't know any other official that would either.

We try to call what is. But being human, sometimes we do call what isn't. But that's a completely different human fraility than the one that you're enquiring about.

ask us this...
 

Hello Coach, welcome to the board.

Now that you've managed to have some healthy interaction without raising anyone's hackles, why don't you take advantage of our greatest collective talent:ie, giving clear concise explanations of the rules. I suggest that your reference to the ephemeral "moving screen" indicates a lack of understanding of the concept and might be a good place to start. At the very least, you will be better prepared to school your players as to what is acceptable in terms of established screening principles.
Go ahead, ask away....

Keep Priorities In Line ...
 

Certainly a valuable use of an official's pregame time. Almost as valuable as looking for cute single moms in the bleachers.

Maybe, if you told them not to travel during the game, your team might get called for fewer travels. Just a thought. :rolleyes:

Uhh, duh, I can multi-task. Anyway, I use times-out to scan the stands for cute moms. By that time my bald head is shiny from sweat. :D:cool:

starting a game with as much info as possible is a good thing. We go in "blind" enough allready.:eek:

Coach,
First of all, welcome to the Board. Secondly, I have several thoughts on your views. As a coach with a career that spans back to the 1970s, I spend many, many hours scouting opponents. Not only do I document a team's patterns, sets, defenses, press breaks, etc., but I also document which players were likely to jump to block shots (head and ball fakes required when near these players), likely to crash through on offensive rebounds (extra aggressive box outs necessary, here), likely to attempt to steal the ball from the dribbler (some 1-on-1 clear outs are in order), etc.

Further, if I know the officials doing my game, I absolutely modify the way my team plays. Some officials call a very close game. In those cases, it was very important to remind the players to stay vertical, not take chances on the offensive end on rebounds, etc. Other officials call a looser game. In those cases, we could trap more aggressively, take chances on rebounds, etc. Do these changes represent MAJOR changes to the way my teams play? Absolutely not! We never try to steal the ball from the dribbler, rarely jump to block shots (instead focusing on a solid box out), rarely attempt to get an offensive rebound unless we have good rebounding position, etc.

With all that said, how do I feel about the pre-game discussions? I am fine with these discussions. As has been pointed out in this thread, any opportunity that we get to gain knowledge about a team or individual players is a good thing. We do watch in pre-game for player tendencies. Some of these tendencies are violations -- travels, illegal dribbles, etc. Other tendencies look strange, but after seeing them several times in pre-game, we may notice that they are actually legal. I see nothing wrong with this.

Major League Soccer referees will actually look at tape of previous games involving teams that they are about to referee. They look for tendencies, they look for "divers", they look to see if there are any match-ups that have caused problems in earlier games, etc. The MLS has determined that such referee meetings improve the quality of games.

Is it possible that team tendencies lead to more fouls or violations being called during a game? Yep, sure is. As JR points out, it is NOT something conscious, but is it possible that there is some subconscious activity going on, here? Yep, sure is.

The real question is how can your team shake the label of being a team of "illegal screeners?" The answer is actually fairly simple. Your team has to set "statue" screens for at least a season. You can't allow your players to stick out a knee, a shoulder, an elbow, etc. You can't allow your players to "reposition" just as the defender is about to make contact.

You must do this while some of your opponents may be able to get away with a slight reposition, etc. Is this fair? Well, maybe not. BUT, typically, teams such as yours get a reputation for a valid reason -- they set illegal screens on a regular basis and gain a significant advantage doing so.

This is no different than the driver who has received THREE speeding tickets in the past year. If that person gets pulled over for speeding, the likelihood of getting a ticket for speeding is VERY HIGH. If a different person who has received NO speeding tickets is also pulled over, the likelihood of that person getting a ticket is lower as they have not had a tendency or history of speeding. Is this fair? Possibly not. But, it is the way things work.

Coach, you do realize, don't you, that the refs are also discussing your opponents in the pre-game? Wouldn't you rather have them watching both teams knowledgably, calling early what needs to be called, so everyone has a chance to clean it up and get down to business? If your opponent's #35 has a tendency to illegally jump stop before shooting, wouldn't you want the refs to be seeing and calling that right away?

I can't see that this is to your disadvantage. As others have pointed out, you are at the advantage in knowing what refs see in your team. Now you can address those specific issues and get your team working toward a higher level of play.

Absolutely we talk about what a team generally does defensively and offensively. I've also had assignors call before the game to give us a head's up if there were more serious issues from a previous game.

My last high school game was in the far southern part of the state. 2 teams I had never seen before. I actually contacted a head coach down in that area (not involved in the game) and asked about both teams' style of play. He also indicated that when the teams last met, there was ugliness that went on during the post-game handshake. He didn't know specifics, but I was very glad to know there was some bad blood, so to speak, between the teams going in. Our game went on without anything major, but we were also had a, to use a women's college term, hightened awareness of any non-basketball plays.