Flagrant foul during the shot
 

Last night a call was made when A1 was in the air during a layup and was elbowed from behind by B1. The referee called an intentional foul(should this be a flagrant1?) and sent the player to the line for 2 shots and the ball. MY QUESTION- If the player was in the act of shooting (2 FT) and the intentional foul was called (2 FT) shouldnt the offense get a total of 4 free throws w/ no defense in the lane plus the ball under the basket?

Nope. Two free throws, plus ball nearest the foul.

Also, no idea if it would/could/should be flagrant from your description. Would likely have to be pretty severe contact, judged intent to injure, or a real swing.

It was one act. Only 2 shots awarded.

It was a elbow to the head and then B1 then taunted A1.

Let me understand this....if an intentional foul is commited away from the ball you get
:2 shots + the ball

Intentional foul is commited during the shot and the basket is good you get
:basket + 2 shots + the ball

Intentional foul is commited during the shot and the basket is missed and you get
:2 shots and the ball

Something does not add up here

May not add up but it's the rule. An intentional foul is always two shots and the ball. Made three pointer with an intentional foul...two shots and the ball (possible 5 point play)

-Josh

If you're talking about the Villanova vs WV game it was a good call by the official (IMO). V player had a clear layup and was shoved from the back "intentionally" by the WV player with no intent to play the ball.

It was called against WV, in their home venue, with little to no discussion or argument about the call from the home team.......ok, the fans were none too happy! ;)

Don't Forget
 

Don't Forget if you are intentionally fouled on a 3 and you miss you get 3 shots and the ball, but if you make it you get 2 and the ball.
It doesn't have to add up, it is just the rule.

An intentional foul will result in two shots unless the foul was on a missed three point shot in which case 3 free throws will be awarded.

Now in your situation, if B1 taunted after the foul, the calling official might have called an intentional foul and an unsporting T resulting in 4 free throws being shot.

I was referring to a high school game last night. I did not see the WV vs Vill game unfortunately.

Does this not seem to reward a defensive player to foul "harder"(if you will) to ensure that if a flagrant/intentional is called that he doesnt make the basket?

I have also found online that it says the player should receive the 2FT for the intentional and the 2 on the shot. I will try to post the link.

Whatever you found online is simply not accurate.

And I don't see the logic behind the "reward"...unless the player knows he's going to foul intentionally and therefore fouls harder to prevent the basket. If the player is already processing that he's going to foul intentionally, he's probably going to do what he can to prevent the make anyway.

Intentional fouls carry the additional penalty of rewarding the offended team the ball. It's already more severe than a common foul. If the player adds enough "extra" to an intentional foul it can be deemed flagrant, which carries the same on-court penalties plus disqualifies the offending player.

By your logic (rewarding an additional 2 shots if the try is unsuccessful) we should also add one additional shot if the try is successful (one for the 'and 1' and two for the intentional foul).

The rule is pretty clear, and I've never seen an incident that would make me re-think its appropriateness.

I guess that's one way to look at it. You're also giving the ball back to the offense and a potential 4-5 point swing if the shot is unsuccessful. Plus, if you're committing a flagrant foul, you're done for the game. And I've never met a player who thought the reward of ensuring a missed basket on a foul outweighed his opportunity to actually participate in the game. You'll find that most coaches aren't too happy when their players commit intentional/flagrant fouls.

As far as what you found online, if it does indeed say that, it is unequivocally wrong.

I bet the link is to a parent website. :p

1. Not really, what it does is reward the offense for making their shot.

2. Don't bother, it's wrong. Consider the following scenarios:

a) A1 goes up for a shot and is fouled by B1. It's team B's 7th foul. Are you going to award bonus FTs for the foul plus two for the shot?
b) B8, sitting on the bench, tells the official what he thinks of the calls. Official calls a T, applying the indirect to the HC. The T is the 10th team foul. Are you going to shoot 2 for the T and 2 for the bonus?

The answer is obviously "no" to both. Every foul gets one penalty, and only one penalty.

Not to split hairs here but you said "unless the player knows he's going to foul intentionally " wouldnt by definition the word INTENTIONAL cover him knowing he was going to commit a foul of this nature?

I guess all i am saying is if an intentional/flagrant foul is commited during the non-shooting act the offensive team should not receive the same reward as during the shot(my opinion)

Doesn't have to add up. It's multiplication. :D

And yes, you have it correct.

My kid is 1 year old so i have no ties to the call....other than having played and never been flagrant fouled on the shot

So then you're encouraging the defender to foul sooner is all.

Submit a rule change suggestion granting an extra free throw for intentional fouls committed against players in the act of shooting.

There is a difference between the dictionary definition of 'intentional' and the rulebook definition of 'intentional foul.' There are many times that fouls that are committed intentionally (think end of game needing to put someone on the line) are not called as intentional fouls (by rule).

I understand that and can see your argument. I disagree, but that doesn't really matter in practice as neither of us make the rules. And the rule is clear on the penalty here.

Maybe the Webster's definition, but not the NFHS definition.

Another flagrant foul question for this debacle....

Lets say A1 was fouled(personal) by B1 during the shot but during the shot
A2 was flagrant/intentional foul by B2.....Wouldnt both A1 and A2 both receive 2 free throws each?

By rule, yes. Plus, due to the flagrant/intentional portion of the 2nd foul, A would get the ball at the spot nearest the foul.

The exception would be if the officials get together and determine that the intentional/flagrant action occurred prior to A1 beginning his shooting motion. In that case, the foul on A1 would be ignored as the ball was dead.

Just for fun, lets take it one step further.... A1 jumps, releases shot, B2 intentionally fouls A2, B1 fouls A1, A1 lands after attempt. (Yes, A1 has AMAZING hang time). Now what do you have?

Same thing as in the OP. The ball isn't dead until A1 returns to the ground.

Edited to add: And A1 doesn't have to release the ball for it to work this way - just needs to have started his habitual motion. At any point after that, the foul by B2 doesn't cause the ball to become dead and A1 can be fouled in the act of shooting at any point until he returns to the ground.

Here's the kicker. False multiple, we all get that.
Since you penalize in order, the intentional gets penalized first, followed by the shooting foul.

Line 'em up when you shoot? Or clear the lane? :D

Oh, snap. That is the fun part. I'll have to go get my books.

Before I do, I'll say penalize in order - shoot the FTs for the intentional, then put everyone on the lane and shoot the throws for the shooting foul.

I agree with you JDW.

Well, if in fact the rule is as you say it is, you ARE rewarding the team who committed the foul. The "intention" when committing an "intentional foul" comes from purposely fouling a player without employing a "basketball move". If this is the rule in place, what is there to stop a team from intentionally fouling on every possesion. If you dont want to call it "rewarding the offending team", you are ATLEAST penalizing the offended team for being in the act of shooting when the intentional foul was committed.

Also, under the rule as you say it is, the offending teams shot attempt should be waved off regardless of make/miss. They should only get the 2 technical fouls shots and the ball.

Otherwise, this entire rule is inappropriate. Entirely too much gray area.

The fact that the offended team receives two shots and possession of the ball.

This is a silly argument.

If the shot is made, then the team gets the basket, plus two shots, plus the ball. That seems like a significant enough penalty.

I'm confused. I thought we were talking about (intentional) personal fouls. What "technical fouls shots" are there?

The shot was not made.

And i apologize for the incorrect language. "intentional foul shots"....is that better?

What are you talking about? How are you penalizing the team for being in the act of shooting? If he makes the shot, it counts and they still get two free throws. If he doesn't, he's not penalized just because he doesn't get extra free throws.

As has been pointed out, what prevents players from doing this every possessions is the simple fact that the offended team gets free throws and a throw in.

[QUOTE=bob jenkins;660096]If the shot is made, then the team gets the basket, plus two shots, plus the ball. That seems like a significant enough penalty.


And if he misses he only gets two shots and the ball? :confused::eek: I keep hearing this and it just sounds more bacwards and weird everytime.

What? This makes no sense. Why would the rule (as I say it is - which is how the rule book says it is) require us to wave off a shot attempt? Your argument has no logic.

And what gray area is there? Any time there is an intentional personal foul, the offended player receives 2 tries unless he was fouled during an unsuccessful 3-point try in which case he receives 3 tries. Pretty black-and-white.

So: Common foul: Two shots and either a rebound or the defense gets the ball. Intentional: Two shots and the offense gets the ball. Still seems like enough of a penalty.

Yes. Thanks

Only slightly: 'foul shot' is not in the rule book.

The biggest difference between an intentional foul and a 'regular' foul is that the offended team retains possession after the free throws.

Note the part in red above. That's the additional penalty for intentionally fouling a player. It matters not what the player is doing when he is fouled (except in the one instance in which he is attempting a three point try) - he gets two shots for that action.

Got a rule reference for this? You put it in quotes, so I assume you've got a reference.
Where did anyone say this?
Sorry, but there's not a hint of gray in this.

That fact is you'll find that in none of the codes do you penalize an intentional/flagrant foul (or their equivalents in other codes) during a try with two shots for the act of shooting plus two shots for the intentional/flagrant.

NFHS: 2 shots + ball unless it's a missed three point attempt
NCAA: Same as NFHS
NBA (Flagrant Type I/Type II): 2 shots+ball unless a missed three point shot. If a made basket, the opponent would have a 2 free throw attempts to make 1.

All three bodies deem the penalty of free throws, possession, and possible ejection enough of a penalty.

Please explain whats in red.

The fouled player in that scenario is allowed up to two shots to make one. He cannot score more than one point, so if he makes the first, the second shot is not attempted. If he misses the first, he is allowed another attempt to score the one point.

That is the weirdest rule i have ever seen/heard. Im sure there is worse but that is my all time high so far. They need to just make it a 2 free throw plus the basket

It's the NBA. They've got some 'different' rules there.

Under NBA rules on a made 2 point shot and foul, no more than 3 points can be scored. On a made 3 point shot and foul, no more than 4 points can be scored.

If you think that's weird, there used to be a time where a foul in the backcourt with the team in the penalty, would result in a 3 to make 2 situation.

This happened last night during the Syracuse game and I still didnt like the fact that they didnt get a 3rd free throw. BUT...atleast i got to see the rule in full force! Thanks for the help on the forum.

BTW- I am trying to get into officiating and was wondering if you had any suggestions?

This looks like a good place to start.

It has email contacts in there based on your area of SC.

That's if you want to get in at the hs level. If you want to work YMCA type ball, contact the rec center or YMCA near you and find out who schedules officials. They should have contact information for you as well.

I read it in case play somewhere that you don't shoot 4 foul shots. Two and the ball unless a missed three point attempt. One that doesn't seem right at first look but makes much more sense the longer you look at it.

You need to take this argument up with the rules makers. We enforce the rules, we don't write them.

Thanks for the link. I emailed the head official in district 8(my district) for basketball and football on Tuesday but received no response. I will continue to search for the correct avenue but I appreciate your insight.

EVERY intentional foul is 2 shots except for one on a missed 3-pointer...Then 3 shots.