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-   -   Pay cut to work 3 man? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/56684-pay-cut-work-3-man.html)

Rich Mon Jan 25, 2010 09:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by amusedofficial (Post 655154)
Interesting to see the quote from a coach who liked a two-official game.

So if he's in a two-whistle league or state, and officials at one of his away games went to the AD and demanded three officials and got it, that is somehow fair?

We can't stop his physical play, so we'll call in an extra official.

Is it fair for the home team to order up a three man crew with a team comes to town that is more physical than Hometown H.S., but goes with the crew of two when Featherweight H.S. is visiting?

Every coach in every basketballlllll game tries to get away with whatever s/he can get away with. It is not up to officials to change the ground rules on a game by game basis, and school should not be able to vary league or state policy on a game by game basis.

You want a crew of three, get it into the league rules before the season starts, or by league-wide decree during the season. Officials seeking to change the parameters on a game by game basis are flat-out unethical.
I don't get your accusation. Unethical? Really, now.

Around here some conferences allow 3-person as long as the officials are willing to accept 2 checks. Some don't allow 3 at all. Some allow it if both teams agree to it. Some assign 3. The only thing consistent is the inconsistency.

As far as places where officials associations contract with schools, I simply recommend that if the association wishes to work 3-person in varsity games that they simply say "no, thanks" to schools and conferences that only wish to hire a 2-person crew. They can find their officials elsewhere. Of course, this could lead to a shortage of games for that group.

Adam Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by amusedofficial (Post 655154)
We can't stop his <strike>physical</strike> illegal and unethical play, so we'll call in an extra official.
Fixed it for you, and this is exactly why we work games with three instead of two.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amusedofficial (Post 655154)
Every coach in every basketballlllll game tries to get away with whatever s/he can get away with. It is not up to officials to change the ground rules on a game by game basis, and school should not be able to vary league or state policy on a game by game basis.
There is a coaches code of ethics in the rule book. I don't have any sympathy for coaches who complain they can't get away with stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amusedofficial (Post 655154)
You want a crew of three, get it into the league rules before the season starts, or by league-wide decree during the season. Officials seeking to change the parameters on a game by game basis are flat-out unethical.
The only reason I ever hear given for using 2 instead of 3 is money. That's it. If the local officials want to take a cut to get experience with 3 (or use 3 for any reason), the schools really don't have any logical recourse. Of course, they can say no. But they never do (that's telling).

And to have you call us unethical for using a third official on some games and not others (completely within the rules) while defending coach's rights to try to get away with stuff (against the actual code of ethics) seems, at best inconsistent. At worst; hypocritical.

LocDog249 Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ibOfficial (Post 655155)
While I admire your noble intentions, officiating isn't a charity case; otherwise, let's get every call right and put 6 whistles on the court [of course, no amount of whistles in the world may achieve this goal]. But as you said, where's the fun in that? :cool:
I would actually prefer to see 13 officials on each game.... 1 assigned to watch each particular player, 1 for each bench, and 1 for the table :) Nothing should ever get missed then :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 655185)

As far as places where officials associations contract with schools, I simply recommend that if the association wishes to work 3-person in varsity games that they simply say "no, thanks" to schools and conferences that only wish to hire a 2-person crew. They can find their officials elsewhere. Of course, this could lead to a shortage of games for that group.
This seems like a great idea to me. Our association is the only one that provides officials for this area, so I would think that if we just stood firm and said we want 3 man, the schools would have to give it to us if they wanted our associations services. Now I know it wouldn't be something that would happen overnight, but if the schools were giving 2 years or so, knowing the change is coming, they could find the extra money for it. Easiest way to me would be to raise ticket prices $.50-1.00 each season until the change takes effect.

Rich Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LocDog249 (Post 655237)
This seems like a great idea to me. Our association is the only one that provides officials for this area, so I would think that if we just stood firm and said we want 3 man, the schools would have to give it to us if they wanted our associations services. Now I know it wouldn't be something that would happen overnight, but if the schools were giving 2 years or so, knowing the change is coming, they could find the extra money for it. Easiest way to me would be to raise ticket prices $.50-1.00 each season until the change takes effect.
This would never work, BTW. There are *always* people willing to work the games. May not be the current set of officials, but could be those who feel they should be working varsity and aren't or whatever. And enough of the current set would work regardless of what the group decided, for whatever reason. When the games went on, officials would start coming back, too.

Do a search on "post-game handshake in Massachusetts". The only reason that's still around is that there were enough officials willing to step over those trying to do the right thing and work games. Or look at the minor league umpire work action of a few years ago....

Adam Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LocDog249 (Post 655237)
I would actually prefer to see 13 officials on each game.... 1 assigned to watch each particular player, 1 for each bench, and 1 for the table :) Nothing should ever get missed then :)



This seems like a great idea to me. Our association is the only one that provides officials for this area, so I would think that if we just stood firm and said we want 3 man, the schools would have to give it to us if they wanted our associations services. Now I know it wouldn't be something that would happen overnight, but if the schools were giving 2 years or so, knowing the change is coming, they could find the extra money for it. Easiest way to me would be to raise ticket prices $.50-1.00 each season until the change takes effect.
Are they only getting about 50 people per game who pay? The difference between 2 and 3 is going to be anywhere from $20 to $40 per game. Here in CO, it's $31-$33, depending on whether its a rural school or a city school (city pays a $2 travel stipend to each official while rural schools pay a mileage fee to one official).

doubleringer Mon Jan 25, 2010 02:04pm
We went to 3 man full time about 5 years ago around here. Up until then, we did often take a pay cut to work 3 man. I had no problem doing it since I knew it made for a better game and made me a better official for the future. I'd say communicate with your partners and see what they think. If they are willing to take the cut, I'd go 3.

Jeremy Hohn Mon Jan 25, 2010 02:57pm
In Texas......
 
We have to take a pay cut for working 3 person in comparison to 2 person. We are also considering going to a "flat rate" next season with no mileage. What are your associations doing?

Adam Mon Jan 25, 2010 03:04pm
I think most areas have a pay cut of some degree compared to the 2 person fees. Here, it's (recommended by the state) $55 for two, or $47 for three.

JRutledge Mon Jan 25, 2010 03:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 655273)
I think most areas have a pay cut of some degree compared to the 2 person fees. Here, it's (recommended by the state) $55 for two, or $47 for three.
Not us man. Three person pays more than two for a single game.

Peace

Adam Mon Jan 25, 2010 03:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 655275)
Not us man. Three person pays more than two for a single game.

Peace
Must have something to do with Chicago politics. :)

Seriously, I'm impressed. Is it because the smaller schools are the ones using 2 person for varsity?

JRutledge Mon Jan 25, 2010 03:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 655278)
Must have something to do with Chicago politics. :)

Seriously, I'm impressed. Is it because the smaller schools are the ones using 2 person for varsity?
Actually this is not about Chicago at all. I live in the suburbs, but I officiate all over the state from the Northern part to West Central Illinois and Central Illinois. I work big and small schools and every game is 3 Person. The only thing that might happen with some small schools is they ask the officials to work a JV/Varsity double header. But that is starting to go away more and more. I cannot speak for the entire state, but I work in a lot of places and this is the norm across the parts I have seen.

Peace

Adam Mon Jan 25, 2010 03:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 655280)
Actually this is not about Chicago at all. I live in the suburbs, but I officiate all over the state from the Northern part to West Central Illinois and Central Illinois. I work big and small schools and every game is 3 Person. The only thing that might happen with some small schools is they ask the officials to work a JV/Varsity double header. But that is starting to go away more and more. I cannot speak for the entire state, but I work in a lot of places and this is the norm across the parts I have seen.

Peace
Gotcha. 2 man = JV. :)

JRutledge Mon Jan 25, 2010 04:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 655284)
Gotcha. 2 man = JV. :)
Or Freshman or Sophomore (JV means the same thing based on what part of the state you are from) or any level that is not varsity. Again like I said there are some exceptions, but I have not worked a varsity game with 2 officials on purpose for some years now.

Peace

Adam Mon Jan 25, 2010 04:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 655306)
Or Freshman or Sophomore (JV means the same thing based on what part of the state you are from) or any level that is not varsity. Again like I said there are some exceptions, but I have not worked a varsity game with 2 officials on purpose for some years now.

Peace
I wasn't aware of any schools in CO that used two until December when there were only two varsity guys following my JV double header. Smaller charter school in town. I guess they need that extra $33 per game.

BillyMac Mon Jan 25, 2010 07:07pm
The Constitution State ...
 
One problem here in Connecticut, especially in my little corner of Connecticut. We don't have enough varsity officials to cover three person games on our busiest nights. Heck, on a few Friday nights during the season, especially during flu season, and when a few officials might be injured, we don't have enough varsity officials to cover two person games. A few weeks ago, we received an urgent email from our assigner asking us to reconsider opening up a Friday night if we had previously blocked it out.

That, and financial considerations, are the two main reasons why Connecticut is, for the most part, a two person state.


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