The Official Forum

The Official Forum (https://forum.officiating.com/)
-   Basketball (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/)
-   -   Underpaid or on par? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/56682-underpaid-par.html)

refiator Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:01am

Underpaid or on par?
 
The post on how many states use 2-person or 3-person crews brings me to ask....Do you typically work a single varsity game or a 2-game varsity set??

Georgia is all 3-person for varsity...$46 per game plus $10/official travel; regular season is always a 2-game set (VG/VB).

Where do we rank?

representing Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:08am

Quote:

Originally Posted by refiator (Post 654907)
The post on how many states use 2-person or 3-person crews brings me to ask....Do you typically work a single varsity game or a 2-game varsity set??

Georgia is all 3-person for varsity...$46 per game plus $10/official travel; regular season is always a 2-game set (VG/VB).

Where do we rank?

Wow. I know if you do a 2-man varsity game, it's something like $70. I believe 3-man is $60, but will find out on Thursday when I do my first varsity game.

JV is $52.

This is Pennsylvania.

fullor30 Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:14am

Quote:

Originally Posted by refiator (Post 654907)
The post on how many states use 2-person or 3-person crews brings me to ask....Do you typically work a single varsity game or a 2-game varsity set??

Well, if it's Georgia, based on what I saw for some AAU games 16 year olds

Georgia is all 3-person for varsity...$46 per game plus $10/official travel; regular season is always a 2-game set (VG/VB).

Where do we rank?


Based on what I saw for some AAU games, 16 year olds in Atlanta a few years back, over a two day period, two bucks a game would be overpaying them. Hideous.

representing Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:18am

Quote:

Originally Posted by fullor30 (Post 654913)
Based on what I saw for some AAU games, 16 year olds in Atlanta a few years back, over a two day period, two bucks a game would be overpaying them. Hideous.

haha. AAU games here always have PIAA certified officials. Even 2nd grader CYO games have just one certified official. I just did one last weekend and it was the easiest game ever. 26 minutes, GIGDGO! and i got paid $25, almost felt like theft. ALMOST.

CMHCoachNRef Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:34am

Quote:

Originally Posted by refiator (Post 654907)
The post on how many states use 2-person or 3-person crews brings me to ask....Do you typically work a single varsity game or a 2-game varsity set??

Georgia is all 3-person for varsity...$46 per game plus $10/official travel; regular season is always a 2-game set (VG/VB).

Where do we rank?

Ohio varies widely by area. In Central Ohio, all varsity games are 3-person. Fees vary from $50 to about $65. We do not get paid for travel. The two largest suburban/rural leagues use 3-person for boys and 2-person for girls FR/JV doubleheaders (pay is about $65 for most 3-person and $82 for most 2-person DHs). On rare occasions, the same crew may do a varsity doubleheader, but that is truly the exception. With over 350 officials in one association, nearly 200 in another, and probably close to 100 in yet another in Franklin County (Columbus' county) alone, there are typically more than enough officials to cover two sets of crews for two varsity games that may be back to back.

SCalScoreKeeper Sun Jan 24, 2010 01:26am

So Cal Pay Rates
 
Here are the pay rates as mandated by the CIF-SS (California-Southern Section) and our sliding mileage scale!

<>BASKETBALL
A. Varsity Game (3 Officials Assigned) --$66
B. Varsity Game (2 Officials Assigned) --$70
C. Varsity Game (1 Official Assigned) ---$81
D. Non-Varsity Game (2 Officials Assigned) --$59
E. Non-Varsity Game (1 Official Assigned) ---$68
PLAYOFF FEES ROUNDS - $79 (2 officials)/$75 (3 officials) FINALS - $87(2 officials)/$83(3 officials)

A. A flat fee will be used to compensate officials for travel based on the following scale:
51 - 75 miles = $12.00
76 - 125 miles = $18.00
126 - 175 miles = $30.00
176 - 250 miles = $42.00
251 - 350 miles = $54.00
351 - 450 miles = $72.00
451 miles and above = For distances beyond 450 miles, the following formula will be utilized:
Begin with $72.00, which represents 450 miles round trip
Add $2.40 for every 15 additional miles traveled round trip
Example: 525 miles round trip = $72.00 - First 450 miles
additional 75 miles = $12.00 - 75 divided by 15 = 5, multiplied by $2.40
Total mileage reimbursement = $84.00

B. The origination point for official’s mileage will be determined in the following way:
1. Regular Season - From the official’s home residence within the assignment area, to the location of their contest.Officials who live or work outside their assignment area will only be compensated for mileage from the point they
enter their assignment area. All officials are entitled to mileage if they drive separately to contests.
2. Playoffs - From the location of the meeting place for the officials association.
Note: For playoffs only, mileage will be paid to the Head Official of all officiating crews in all sports.

Crews here are two person for all regular season and tournament games in my area. Some areas assign three person crews to their tournament championships however.

zm1283 Sun Jan 24, 2010 01:42am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SCalScoreKeeper (Post 654938)
Here are the pay rates as mandated by the CIF-SS (California-Southern Section) and our sliding mileage scale!

<>BASKETBALL
A. Varsity Game (3 Officials Assigned) --$66
B. Varsity Game (2 Officials Assigned) --$70
C. Varsity Game (1 Official Assigned) ---$81
D. Non-Varsity Game (2 Officials Assigned) --$59
E. Non-Varsity Game (1 Official Assigned) ---$68
PLAYOFF FEES ROUNDS - $79 (2 officials)/$75 (3 officials) FINALS - $87(2 officials)/$83(3 officials)

A. A flat fee will be used to compensate officials for travel based on the following scale:
51 - 75 miles = $12.00
76 - 125 miles = $18.00
126 - 175 miles = $30.00
176 - 250 miles = $42.00
251 - 350 miles = $54.00
351 - 450 miles = $72.00
451 miles and above = For distances beyond 450 miles, the following formula will be utilized:
Begin with $72.00, which represents 450 miles round trip
Add $2.40 for every 15 additional miles traveled round trip
Example: 525 miles round trip = $72.00 - First 450 miles
additional 75 miles = $12.00 - 75 divided by 15 = 5, multiplied by $2.40
Total mileage reimbursement = $84.00

B. The origination point for official’s mileage will be determined in the following way:
1. Regular Season - From the official’s home residence within the assignment area, to the location of their contest.Officials who live or work outside their assignment area will only be compensated for mileage from the point they
enter their assignment area. All officials are entitled to mileage if they drive separately to contests.
2. Playoffs - From the location of the meeting place for the officials association.
Note: For playoffs only, mileage will be paid to the Head Official of all officiating crews in all sports.

Crews here are two person for all regular season and tournament games in my area. Some areas assign three person crews to their tournament championships however.

My gosh that's confusing.

Ours is pretty simple:

Any game played with....

8 min quarters = $55 each
7 min quarters = $45 each
6 min quarters = $35 each

2 or 3 person makes no difference, the pay is the same.

We add on $15 for any single game you officiate, so if you call one varsity game you make $70.

A vast majority of the time the same crew does the JV and V games in the same night.

40 cents/mile for one official in mileage.

Welpe Sun Jan 24, 2010 03:38am

Here, we are paid the same for all sub-varsity games based upon the quarter length.

6-Min: $25

8-Min: $30

I did have a 7-Min game this season that was paid at $30.

This is in addition to mileage, paid at $0.55 / mile for this season.

Public school varsity is $55 plus mileage. I'm not sure what the private schools pay though I did see some sub-varsity private school games that were paying at $45 / game without mileage.

APG Sun Jan 24, 2010 06:39am

Here's the pay scale in Austin:

All Sub-varsity:

1 game: $60.00
2 games: $80.00

Varsity:

1 game, 2 person: $90.00
2 games, 2 person: $110.00

1 game, 3 person: $75.00
2 games, 3 person: $95.00

For the most part, the varsity crew does one game. Private schools are more likely to schedule the varsity crew to do both the JV and varsity. In that instance, the crew gets paid as if they did two varsity games. Our pay scale does not include mileage. We charge mileage on a few school which we cover that are way out there.

Welpe Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:49pm

I need to move to Austin! My wife has informed me though that we can't move to Austin just for the increase in officiating fees. :(

Treeguy Sun Jan 24, 2010 01:04pm

This is ours;

8th single game $37
8th double header $66
8th triple header $100
9th $42
CYO $30
JV $47
V $55 (3 officials)

jTheUmp Sun Jan 24, 2010 01:08pm

High school subvarsity pays $53 for one game, $77 for two games here in the Twin Cities, with no mileage reimbursement.

I haven't worked a varsity game yet, so I can't comment on the pay rate there.

SAJ Sun Jan 24, 2010 02:17pm

Ours are agreed upon by the school and officials. We have no assignors in Nebraska, so we have to contact AD's to fill our schedule.

Nearly all schools schedule either JV/V or V/V for contracts. A majority pay a fixed amount irregardless of the number of officials. Typically it's between $280-$360 for the two games. Split that 2 or 3 ways depending on the number of officials you bring.

Some schools list on their contract a fixed amount for 2man and a separate amount for 3man. Not too often though. Usually around $240 for 2man $300-$330 for 3man.

BillyMac Sun Jan 24, 2010 02:22pm

The Constitution State ...
 
Everything based on two person crews, no travel expenses:

High school varsity: $86.63 each
All subvarsity (junior varsity, freshman, public middle school): $56.18 each
Almost all games are single games. Occasionally we get get assigned a freshman/junior varsity doubleheader.
Automatic annual fee increase equal to average increase in teacher pay in Connecticut.

Catholic middle school league:
Varsity (grade 7, 8; 7:00 periods): $40.00 each (Usually a boys/girls doubleheader)
Junior varsity (grade 5, 6; 6:00 periods): $30.00 each (Usually assigned in groups of two or three games)

jearef Sun Jan 24, 2010 06:11pm

In northern West "by God" Virginia, we get a flat $60 per varsity game, all of which are 3-person. No mileage. Fee is due to go up to $65 per game next season.

dbking Sun Jan 24, 2010 06:36pm

Kansas City area on KS side of the line
 
Varsity 1 game = $70 all 3 person
Varsity 2 game set = $140 all 3 person

Sub varsity $40 - 45? all 2 person

Most games are single game, one conference does double headers.

wanja Sun Jan 24, 2010 08:12pm

A survey of hs officiating pay rates is available here . I'll incorporate some of the info in this thread. Keep it coming.

jdw3018 Sun Jan 24, 2010 08:17pm

Northeastern OK, 2-man, generally $100 per G/B double-header. No travel $. Some leagues may be slightly less, some more, but generally around $100.

SAJ Sun Jan 24, 2010 08:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAJ (Post 655010)
Ours are agreed upon by the school and officials. We have no assignors in Nebraska, so we have to contact AD's to fill our schedule.

Nearly all schools schedule either JV/V or V/V for contracts. A majority pay a fixed amount irregardless of the number of officials. Typically it's between $280-$360 for the two games. Split that 2 or 3 ways depending on the number of officials you bring.

Some schools list on their contract a fixed amount for 2man and a separate amount for 3man. Not too often though. Usually around $240 for 2man $300-$330 for 3man.

Here is Nebraska's state rate for district and state tournament play:

Championship Officials and Fees
1. Only officials registered with the NSAA will be hired.
2. The following fees have been established for all subdistrict and district championships.
a. Each of the three officials for subdistrict and district championships shall receive $50.00 per game.
b. Mileage shall be paid at a rate of $1.00 per mile one-way for one automobile, per set of officials. If a set of
officials travels from different locations, mileage shall be paid to the official traveling the greater distance.
3. The NSAA office will hire and write contracts for all officials.
4. The director will pay the officials from the championship receipts.

source: http://nsaahome.org/textfile/bask/bbmanual.pdf

eyezen Sun Jan 24, 2010 08:38pm

From my area in Missouri:

The typical Soph/Var DH we bring in 5 officials:

The soph game is $46
The varsity game is $65

No mileage.

This varies widely around the state.

Nevadaref Sun Jan 24, 2010 08:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 655011)
Everything based on two person crews, no travel expenses:

High school varsity: $86.63 each
All subvarsity (junior varsity, freshman, public middle school): $56.18 each
Almost all games are single games. Occasionally we get get assigned a freshman/junior varsity doubleheader.
Automatic annual fee increase equal to average increase in teacher pay in Connecticut.

Catholic middle school league:
Varsity (grade 7, 8; 7:00 periods): $40.00 each (Usually a boys/girls doubleheader)
Junior varsity (grade 5, 6; 6:00 periods): $30.00 each (Usually assigned in groups of two or three games)

Any travel stipend in CT?

grunewar Sun Jan 24, 2010 09:16pm

My Association:

Usually have F/JV doubleheader. Two-person - $45-$55/game.
Varsity is one game. Three-person - $63/game

Unless the game is way out there (only a few are) we don't get travel.

Our games are mostly Tues and Fri nights. So, when the Boys Teams play at home, the Girls Teams are away. Hence why we have no BV/GV double-headers.

StripesOhio Sun Jan 24, 2010 09:29pm

NW Ohio JV usually $40 or $45

JH 7/8 DH is usually $50 or $55.

Not sure about varsity, I can answer that next season (hopefully).

No mileage reimbursement.

scboa11 Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:12pm

The South Carolina High School League-

varsity (3-man) pays $63+round trip travel @ $0.45/mi (minimum 10 mi) so a school 10 mi or within =$72 fee. An average check is probably high $80s but could get as high as $117. In SC, crews always work GV-BV double header and can only work twice per week.

Subvarsity (2-man where I am but some areas use 3 on JV) pays $45 plus same travel fees. Middle school is $38 plus travel I think.

biggravy Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:18pm

Southeast Kansas.

Almost always 2 games in a night, either GV/BV or BJV/GJV.

V is $95-110 3 man depending on conference. The occasional 2 man GV/BV is $115-125.

Sub V is usually 75 for 2 games, 2 officials.

No travel.

kycat1 Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:36pm

Here in Tennessee, Varsity games are assigned by an association's assignor. Varsity games are all 3 person crew and we usually ref GV and BV same night back to back. For both games each officials get a total of $80 and NO TRAVEL $$.
Many nights I'll travel over an hour to get to my games. I leave work about 4:30 to be available for GV 6:30 tip-off. Then we have a BV starting at 8:00. By the time game is over and travel back home it is about 11:00.

So for $80 (no mileage fee) I spend about 6 1/2 hours of my time and effort and always getting yelled at by coaches and fans for about $12.30 an hour. :eek:WOW. I must do it for the love of the game??????? Or am I just crazy????

BillyMac Mon Jan 25, 2010 07:36am

A Little Traveling Music Please Sammy ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 655100)
Any travel stipend in CT?

No. It's a small state with regular season assignments within counties. My county is approximately fifty miles wide, I live on the border with another county, so my longest trip from home is about fifty miles. I work in the center of of the county, so games that I travel to from work are about 25 miles or less. My guess is that nobody in Connecticut travels more than 60 miles one way to a regular season game, and that would be an extreme.

Rich Mon Jan 25, 2010 09:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by kycat1 (Post 655116)
Here in Tennessee, Varsity games are assigned by an association's assignor. Varsity games are all 3 person crew and we usually ref GV and BV same night back to back. For both games each officials get a total of $80 and NO TRAVEL $$.
Many nights I'll travel over an hour to get to my games. I leave work about 4:30 to be available for GV 6:30 tip-off. Then we have a BV starting at 8:00. By the time game is over and travel back home it is about 11:00.

So for $80 (no mileage fee) I spend about 6 1/2 hours of my time and effort and always getting yelled at by coaches and fans for about $12.30 an hour. :eek:WOW. I must do it for the love of the game??????? Or am I just crazy????

When I did the GV/BV DHers in Tennessee back in 1995-1997 we got $60 and worked both games 2-person.

I'm spoiled. I like working my one game now. Start at 7:30PM and hopefully in the car showered and changed by 9PM.

Terrapins Fan Wed Jan 27, 2010 08:02am

We get $65 varsity 3 man. No travel

$45 JV 2 man. West Virginia and some of Maryland

About 90% of our assingments are 1 game.

Once in a while you will get 2 games and sometimes you have to travel between games.

I did 2 games last week, I had a 4:15 and a 7:30 and the schools were 20 miles apart.

Jfpdi Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:57am

NY Depending on the county rates vary and are contracted by the local boards and the districts. Just North of NYC V $94, 2 person, JV $76, 7 and 8 grade $71 for 5 seven minute quarters.
Assignors for rec leagues negotiate prices: CYO games $40, 12 minute halves, mens rec leagues 45 to 55 a game. Other kids rec leagues 35 to 40 a game depending on age of kids.

All solo games (school or rec) get a fee and a half. no milage

doubleringer Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:01am

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbking (Post 655065)
Varsity 1 game = $70 all 3 person
Varsity 2 game set = $140 all 3 person

Sub varsity $40 - 45? all 2 person

Most games are single game, one conference does double headers.

I'm moving back to KC. Here in Iowa we get anywhere from $66 (the lowest I've been paid this year, they're off the schedule in the future) to $95 (highest plus mileage at some schools) for double headers. Single games are $70 I think.

Rich Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by doubleringer (Post 655881)
I'm moving back to KC. Here in Iowa we get anywhere from $66 (the lowest I've been paid this year, they're off the schedule in the future) to $95 (highest plus mileage at some schools) for double headers. Single games are $70 I think.

With travel, I've received up to $115 in SW Wisconsin. Of course, in those games I'm driving 100 miles one way, so I'd rather forego the $50 travel and work locally, but it is what it is sometimes.

TwoDot Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:50am

In Montana it is $50 for two man varsity, 46.25 for a 3 person varsity. Typically it would be for at two game set (boys and girls varsity).

A Pennsylvania Coach Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by representing (Post 654910)
Wow. I know if you do a 2-man varsity game, it's something like $70. I believe 3-man is $60, but will find out on Thursday when I do my first varsity game.

JV is $52.

This is Pennsylvania.

In my part of Pennsylvania:

Varsity (2-person): $74
Varsity (3-person): $60

Everything else is 2-person:
JV: $53.50
One JH game: $49.50
Two JH games in a set: $73.50
Adult Rec: $25
Youth Travel: $30
CYO: $30, $28, $22 depending on level

No mileage on top of any of that. Work solo on what should be a two-man game and you get a fee-and-a-half.

chartrusepengui Wed Jan 27, 2010 01:09pm

NE WI - I've gotten as high as $149 with travel - $80 + $69 mileage and as low as $45 for 2 person.

BillyMac Wed Jan 27, 2010 07:19pm

150% Effort ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach (Post 655962)
Work solo on what should be a two-man game and you get a fee-and-a-half.

Ditto for Connecticut.

Adam Wed Jan 27, 2010 07:23pm

CO
Varsity 2: $55
Varsity 3: $47

JV 2: $41
JV 3: $35

Metro areas of Denver and Co. Springs (maybe others) pay a $2 travel stipend to each official per night. If we travel to a school outside the area, one official per crew gets mileage.

NathanRT Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:24pm

Dallas:

(for schools on the flat rate plan, some of our schools still pay UIL 1204)

MS:
$30/game, $10 Travel/Assignment

9th/JV:
$40/game, $10 Travel/Assignment

Varsity:
$55/game, $15 Travel/Assignment

Schools more than 25 miles from downtown pay an additional $10 travel surcharge (Varsity only).

Tournaments are the same, minus the travel.

//edited for clarity

amusedofficial Thu Jan 28, 2010 02:24am

Reject multi game discounts
 
Cutting fees for doing more than one game, or for working three whistle as opposed to two, is something officials should stand united and reject out of hand.

You're paying for my training, my expertise, and my experience. It's the same in game two as in game one. It's the same if I have two partners or one.

Full fee for each, please. And fie on those who jump at the chance to give a discount for taking two games. I'm not mailing it in on game two and I don't expect the league or school to consider the second game worth anything but a full fee.

Rich Thu Jan 28, 2010 02:30am

Quote:

Originally Posted by amusedofficial (Post 656232)
Cutting fees for doing more than one game, or for working three whistle as opposed to two, is something officials should stand united and reject out of hand.

You're paying for my training, my expertise, and my experience. It's the same in game two as in game one. It's the same if I have two partners or one.

Full fee for each, please. And fie on those who jump at the chance to give a discount for taking two games. I'm not mailing it in on game two and I don't expect the league or school to consider the second game worth anything but a full fee.

Some places have a set fee that sets the second game at a lower rate than the first.

Not here. If I work a JV/V DH I get paid the JV rate plus the V rate. In baseball, a DH pays twice a single game fee. As it should be. If mileage is included, pay it once - I'm only driving once.

Adam Thu Jan 28, 2010 02:40am

Quote:

Originally Posted by amusedofficial (Post 656232)
Cutting fees for doing more than one game, or for working three whistle as opposed to two, is something officials should stand united and reject out of hand.

1. How do you propose we do this?
2. Are you suggesting that working 3 is just as difficult as 2? I'm not saying 2/3 is a fair sum, but I don't think 3/3 makes sense either. The fact is, if I'm working a game with 2 rather than 3, I think I should get paid more.

bbcof83 Thu Jan 28, 2010 02:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jTheUmp (Post 654993)
High school subvarsity pays $53 for one game, $77 for two games here in the Twin Cities, with no mileage reimbursement.

I haven't worked a varsity game yet, so I can't comment on the pay rate there.

$70 for a single varsity, 2 or 3 officials. $105 for V/JV. No mileage in the metro.

ODJ Thu Jan 28, 2010 02:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 654991)
I need to move to Austin! My wife has informed me though that we can't move to Austin just for the increase in officiating fees. :(

At least Austin has zoning laws.

Kingsman1288 Thu Jan 28, 2010 04:19pm

Sunny San Diego
 
Here in sunny San Diego, CA we get...

Varsity 2 Person-$69

Varsity 3 Person-$55 (I believe this is the new amount, 3 person is relatively rare here except in playoffs)

JV-$50

Freshman-$42

Club (Non-CIF Sanctioned) Freshman ~$30

No mileage except for one school that is way out there, and even then only one official gets the mileage $. Their way of encouraging carpooling I suppose. No reductions for double headers either, full game fee for each game. JV/V=119, V/V=138, etc.

M&M Guy Thu Jan 28, 2010 05:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 656237)
2. Are you suggesting that working 3 is just as difficult as 2? I'm not saying 2/3 is a fair sum, but I don't think 3/3 makes sense either. The fact is, if I'm working a game with 2 rather than 3, I think I should get paid more.

Does the game take less time when you work 3-person vs. 2-person? Are you gone from home less time? Does your uniform cost more when you work 2-person? If you don't get mileage (which many do not), do you drive less if it's a 3-person game, than if that same game is done 2-person? In the summer, do you train less in 3-person mechanics? Is the "gate" at the school less if the game is officiated with 3 officials? (Shall I go on?)

Just sayin'. :)

fullor30 Thu Jan 28, 2010 05:19pm

I'm retitling thread

We are all under paid, by how much?

biggravy Thu Jan 28, 2010 09:03pm

Our fees are front loaded to where the first game is about double the second game. Why? Schools didn't want to pay mileage. :cool: I like it.

Welpe Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ODJ (Post 656405)
At least Austin has zoning laws.

Houston's lack of zoning doesn't really bother me. :)

fullor30 Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 656526)
Houston's lack of zoning doesn't really bother me. :)

Strange town, you can have strip club across the street from a church or school.

BillyMac Fri Jan 29, 2010 07:35am

Park Once ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fullor30 (Post 656530)
Strange town, you can have strip club across the street from a church or school.

One stop shopping.

johnny1784 Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:48am

Quote:

Originally Posted by wanja (Post 655086)
A survey of hs officiating pay rates is available here . I'll incorporate some of the info in this thread. Keep it coming.

How about updating your 2010 camps?

Always a superb site and thanks for your hard work in gathering information.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:42am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1