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cmhjordan23 Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:57pm

Officials switching
 
Who's job is it as an official to initiate a switch on foul calls. I did a JV game this evening and we didn't switch once other than for shooting free throws. Everytime he would call a foul, I would be on the endline and I would hold out the ball towards him thinking he would get the point that I want to switch.

representing Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:14am

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmhjordan23 (Post 654905)
Who's job is it as an official to initiate a switch on foul calls. I did a JV game this evening and we didn't switch once other than for shooting free throws. Everytime he would call a foul, I would be on the endline and I would hold out the ball towards him thinking he would get the point that I want to switch.

This is one of my pet peeves about partners. Some will just not want to switch in JV or lower games. And the other one is switching when you're not supposed to switch. Perfect example is if I'm the T and my partner's the L, and the ball goes out of bounds near the half-court line in my corner and it goes the other way, I'll blow my whistle dead and get ready to turn when my partner will already be at the half-court line to go to the other endline. I even pregame this and it still happens.

There really shouldn't be any initiation of switching. You and your partner should know when to switch that it should just happen as if it was instinctive. If you know you're supposed to switch, then just start walking. That's what I do. If your partner waves you off as if to say stay there, go to him and say "You know we're supposed to switch, so we're switching".

CMHCoachNRef Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:25am

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmhjordan23 (Post 654905)
Who's job is it as an official to initiate a switch on foul calls. I did a JV game this evening and we didn't switch once other than for shooting free throws. Everytime he would call a foul, I would be on the endline and I would hold out the ball towards him thinking he would get the point that I want to switch.

If you are a relatively new official, I would tell your partner that you are still working on your mechanics. Therefore, you really want to work on proper mechanics, today including switching at the proper times. If you ask for their help, most vets will be willing to work with you in this situation.

If you are an experienced official who insists on doing the job the right way, let your partner know that you would like to use proper mechanics, today. If he objects to switching on all fouls, insist on switching on shooting fouls.

If you have a truly lazy partner, you can force a switch in many cases. If he reports a non-shooting foul, you can put the ball on the floor at the throw-in location and go to the opposite location.

Nevadaref Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:39am

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmhjordan23 (Post 654905)
Who's job is it as an official to initiate a switch on foul calls. I did a JV game this evening and we didn't switch once other than for shooting free throws. Everytime he would call a foul, I would be on the endline and I would hold out the ball towards him thinking he would get the point that I want to switch.

From the 2009-11 NFHS Basketball Officials Manual:

2.4.2 E3 "The non-calling official should force a switch just prior to the ball being put in play."

Nevadaref Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:51am

Quote:

Originally Posted by representing (Post 654914)
This is one of my pet peeves about partners. Some will just not want to switch in JV or lower games. And the other one is switching when you're not supposed to switch. Perfect example is if I'm the T and my partner's the L, and the ball goes out of bounds near the half-court line in my corner and it goes the other way, I'll blow my whistle dead and get ready to turn when my partner will already be at the half-court line to go to the other endline. I even pregame this and it still happens.

There really shouldn't be any initiation of switching. You and your partner should know when to switch that it should just happen as if it was instinctive. If you know you're supposed to switch, then just start walking. That's what I do. If your partner waves you off as if to say stay there, go to him and say "You know we're supposed to switch, so we're switching".

I have difficulty understanding what you are saying in the bolded part of your post as your writing is not clear on the details.
If the ball went OOB in the old frontcourt, then the old Lead should come over and administer the throw-in while the old Trail moves down the court to become the new Lead. There would not be a switch in this case.

However, if the ball crossed the division line prior to going OOB and the throw-in will be in the new frontcourt, then whichever official was responsible for that line and made the OOB call would administer the throw-in. This may necessitate a switch.

Your statement in red is just plain wrong as demonstrated by the citation from the NFHS manual.

KJUmp Sun Jan 24, 2010 06:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef (Post 654921)
If you are a relatively new official, I would tell your partner that you are still working on your mechanics. Therefore, you really want to work on proper mechanics, today including switching at the proper times. If you ask for their help, most vets will be willing to work with you in this situation.

If you are an experienced official who insists on doing the job the right way, let your partner know that you would like to use proper mechanics, today. If he objects to switching on all fouls, insist on switching on shooting fouls.

If you have a truly lazy partner, you can force a switch in many cases. If he reports a non-shooting foul, you can put the ball on the floor at the throw-in location and go to the opposite location.

My experience as a 2nd year non-board (working toward my cert.) ref is that in my area, yes, vets who are board certified are always willing to utilize proper mechanics with me in working a JV game, and offer advice, tips, etc. Same can be said for any P's who, like me, are working for their board certification. For me, the problem cmhjordan posted occurs whenever I work a JV game with an "experienced", (in terms of # of years as a ref), non-board, referee.

They are almost to a man, simply adamant and headstrong that they are going to do it the way they've done it for years. Efforts to initiate any level of a pre-game conference, (if they arrive in time to even have one), are met with, disdain? disinterest? "Ahh...what does it matter it's only JV." I think you know what I mean here.

So I go out and try to work as best as I can with this type of P. I mean we've got a game to officiate. I'll force the switch anytime I can. During TO's I'll initiate communication with them so (hopefully) we don't have a screw-up coming out of the TO. I'll work on my mechanics and positioning. I mean I'm not trying to show anyone up, but I'll be dammed if I'm going to get sloppy about things such as foul reporting, hand signals, proper administration of F/T's and throw-ins, (esp. having the throw-in occur from the proper spot). Heck, I'm still trying to learn all this stuff so I can do it the right way, the same way, every time without having to think about it.

Part of the problem in my area is that JV games are not assigned by the board. Both B&GJV assignments are handled by any number of local assignors. Our board's only involvement in JV games is having one of the V refs arrive at the gym early enough to do one of the required number of evaluations you need to move onto the next level. You are on your own to get the assignments. I mention this because obviously, as a newbie, complaining to your assignor(s) about one of their long time "regulars" is not the way to get more games.

Like other JV guys who have posted, it's not the best situation for your development/advancement, but you play the hand your dealt. There's always something in every game you can work on and learn from...no matter who you have as a partner.

Sorry this reply turned into a vent.

Ignats75 Mon Jan 25, 2010 07:52am

Don't forget that in the two person mechanic, the switch rule changed this year.

Nevadaref Mon Jan 25, 2010 07:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ignats75 (Post 655170)
Don't forget that in the two person mechanic, the switch rule changed this year.

Yep, it is now switch on all non-shooting fouls.

mbyron Mon Jan 25, 2010 09:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 655171)
Yep, it is now switch on all non-shooting fouls.

That's not a change. ;)

CMHCoachNRef Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:11am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 655171)
Yep, it is now switch on all non-shooting fouls.

Switch on all shooting fouls, too, if the foul is called by the official who changes positions to get to the table.

Adam Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:23am

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef (Post 655211)
Switch on all shooting fouls, too, if the foul is called by the official who changes positions to get to the table.

My understanding (and CO doens't use it, so take it FWIW) is that if the trail calls a shooting foul in the FC, there would be no switch; allowing the trail to stay table side as trail.

doubleringer Mon Jan 25, 2010 02:05pm

Let the players get the ball and you run to where you're supposed to go for the switch. Your partner will catch on.

Nevadaref Mon Jan 25, 2010 09:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef (Post 655211)
Switch on all shooting fouls, too, if the foul is called by the official who changes positions to get to the table.

Now that wouldn't be all, would it? :rolleyes:

My statement comes from the new NFHS manual -- 2.4.2 E1: "Officials should switch positions on all non-shooting fouls."

Shooting fouls are covered by 2.4.2 E2. The FED says, "For shooting fouls, the calling official reports the foul to [the] table, then remains table side at Trail."

The way that these two statements put it is much simpler.

CMHCoachNRef Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 655419)
Now that wouldn't be all, would it? :rolleyes:

My statement comes from the new NFHS manual -- 2.4.2 E1: "Officials should switch positions on all non-shooting fouls."

Shooting fouls are covered by 2.4.2 E2. The FED says, "For shooting fouls, the calling official reports the foul to [the] table, then remains table side at Trail."

The way that these two statements put it is much simpler.

Nevada,
Since when does FED want simple? :rolleyes:


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