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-   -   Neat InBound Play (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/56623-neat-inbound-play.html)

LeeBallanfant Thu Jan 21, 2010 09:33pm

Neat InBound Play
 
Louisville @ Seton Hall tonight. In final seconds of close game, defense challenging, player inbounding takes step across line and then throws ball to referee. Referee throws back to inbounder who makes nice pass to beat the pressure.

I hope a lot of coaches were watching because thats a great play, sort of a 6 on 5.

jdw3018 Thu Jan 21, 2010 09:44pm

That works until the official just bats the ball to the floor.

fullor30 Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeBallanfant (Post 654263)
Louisville @ Seton Hall tonight. In final seconds of close game, defense challenging, player inbounding takes step across line and then throws ball to referee. Referee throws back to inbounder who makes nice pass to beat the pressure.

I hope a lot of coaches were watching because thats a great play, sort of a 6 on 5.

The way this is written, it's a violation. Do mean player who is about to go out of bounds to in bound tosses ball to referee?

jdw3018 Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by fullor30 (Post 654280)
The way this is written, it's a violation. Do mean player who is about to go out of bounds to in bound tosses ball to referee?

I took it to mean after a made basket.

justacoach Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeBallanfant (Post 654263)
Louisville @ Seton Hall tonight. In final seconds of close game, defense challenging, player inbounding takes step across line and then throws ball to referee. Referee throws back to inbounder who makes nice pass to beat the pressure.

I hope a lot of coaches were watching because thats a great play, sort of a 6 on 5.

Lee:
'splain more, please. Having a hard time placing player after player throws ball to official. Is he still in the air towards inbounds or has he alighted inbounds?

LeeBallanfant Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:42pm

O.7 seconds left, Louisville has just scored and SH inbounding. Player in bounding takes one step and puts foot onto court. Then he tosses ball back to Referee Tony Greene who returns a sharp pass back to him and then inbounder passes onto court.

If someone can post a clip it would be helpful.

justacoach Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeBallanfant (Post 654288)
O.7 seconds left, Louisville has just scored and SH inbounding. Player in bounding takes one step and puts foot onto court. Then he tosses ball back to Referee Tony Greene who returns a sharp pass back to him and then inbounder passes onto court.

If someone can post a clip it would be helpful.

I think Mr Tony Greene got some 'splainin to do why he didn't hit his whistle for throw-in violation......

bbcoach7 Fri Jan 22, 2010 01:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdw3018 (Post 654270)
That works until the official just bats the ball to the floor.

Yeah, or the referee ducks the pass, then stands back up to continue his 5 count (he's now on 2) while the ball rolls into the corner. I've seen a referee do exactly that- duck when the ball passed to him.

Stupid idea if it was intentional, too risky in a tight game. Just execute what you run for the game sitch.

Clark Kent Fri Jan 22, 2010 04:17am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeBallanfant (Post 654288)
O.7 seconds left, Louisville has just scored and SH inbounding. Player in bounding takes one step and puts foot onto court. Then he tosses ball back to Referee Tony Greene who returns a sharp pass back to him and then inbounder passes onto court.

If someone can post a clip it would be helpful.

Certainly not as clear as watching it on ESPN360 but here is what it looked like for those who don't get ESPN360 or have it Tivo-ed

YouTube - Seaton Hall Louisville Inbound Play 2010

or

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SmA4ejZjrg

APG Fri Jan 22, 2010 04:42am

Is it just me, or did it sound like a whistle was blown after the made basket? You can see all the players stop play as if one was blown. That's the only way I can see why the violation wasn't called.

jdw3018 Fri Jan 22, 2010 05:25am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer (Post 654324)
Is it just me, or did it sound like a whistle was blown after the made basket? You can see all the players stop play as if one was blown. That's the only way I can see why the violation wasn't called.

That's what it looked/sounded like to me. Strange.

Clark Kent Fri Jan 22, 2010 05:43am

It appears as if Tony Greene gets to two on his five second inbound count.....but there is no doubt the players stopped. Gray 10 is the only one that moves.

KJUmp Fri Jan 22, 2010 05:50am

Is there anything in NCAA rules/casebook or mechanics that could possibly make what we all saw not a violation?
NCAA guys......your thoughts.
Man, that was strange.....

jdw3018 Fri Jan 22, 2010 05:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by KJUmp (Post 654333)
Is there anything in NCAA rules/casebook or mechanics that could possibly make what we all saw not a violation?
NCAA guys......your thoughts.
Man, that was strange.....

Not an NCAA guy, but the only thing I can figure is that, while none of the officials seemed to have blown the whistle, Greene figured out that everyone stopped and the confusion caused the issue.

Very strange play.

Clark Kent Fri Jan 22, 2010 05:55am

The ball went through the net around 1.2 or 1.1, but it ran down to .7 before stopping. Perhaps one of the other officials blew to check the clock and see if they should add some time and thus the players stopped. However even then it wouldn't make sense as to why the would have inbounded the ball after the alleged violation.

Nevadaref Fri Jan 22, 2010 07:19am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeBallanfant (Post 654263)
Louisville @ Seton Hall tonight. In final seconds of close game, defense challenging, player inbounding takes step across line and then throws ball to referee. Referee throws back to inbounder who makes nice pass to beat the pressure.

I hope a lot of coaches were watching because thats a great play, sort of a 6 on 5.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer (Post 654324)
Is it just me, or did it sound like a whistle was blown after the made basket? You can see all the players stop play as if one was blown. That's the only way I can see why the violation wasn't called.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clark Kent (Post 654323)
Certainly not as clear as watching it on ESPN360 but here is what it looked like for those who don't get ESPN360 or have it Tivo-ed

YouTube - Seaton Hall Louisville Inbound Play 2010

or

YouTube - Seaton Hall Louisville.avi

For those who haven't seen this, you absolutely must have a look.
It says SETON HALL PIRATES across the end line from opposite table to the the tableside with the "ALL P" within the FT lane lines extended.

My observations:
1. There is definitely a whistle following the made 3pt goal by LV. I managed to pause the video at 1.1 after the ball passed through, but the clock runs down to 0.7.
2. All of the players stop due to that sound.
3. The inbounder is on the opposite side of the basket from the new Trail who is tableside. He collects the ball steps OOB with both feet and then carries the ball onto the court by stepping back inbounds with both feet as he seems to be confused. He is about to toss the ball to the covering official, Tony Greene, but then one of his teammate calls for it and the other players start to play. The inbounder is standing with both feet inbounds and turns and looks to make the throw-in pass from that location to his teammate. During this action Greene has counted to two.
4. Tony Greene now steps forward and whistles. The play is clearly dead at this point. He motions the player back behind the line. The player tosses him the ball, and then he throws it back to him and starts the five second count.
5. Rick Pitino, the LV coach, runs down the sideline to argue for a throw-in violation.
6. The Seton Hall player attempts a throw-in pass from between the N and H in SETON HALL, which the LV defender blocks by CLEARLY reaching across the boundary plane and deflecting the ball just after it comes out of the thrower's hands and the ball bounces OOB twice and Greene catches it. The first bounce of the ball seems to be on the P in PIRATES on the tableside part of the end line, which means the ball was in the air for the length of the FT lane. No time comes off the clock during this action!
7. Greene does not penalize the LV player for his infraction. It should be a technical foul, class B.
8. Greene walks Pitino back to his bench and then administers Seton Hall another throw-in.
9. Greene is not precise with where he administers this designated-spot throw-in. The first look that we have is the thrower on the opposite side of the basket from before and on the A in PIRATES. The thrower moves along the end line, more than 3ft in my opinion, and throws the ball in while straddling the I. No violation is called.
10. Seton Hall catches it and is fouled with 0.2 seconds remaining.

What a mess.

Jurassic Referee Fri Jan 22, 2010 09:17am

Quote:

Originally Posted by justacoach (Post 654292)
I think Mr Tony Greene got some 'splainin to do why he didn't hit his whistle for throw-in violation......

Agree. I was watching it live and saw the replays. Thrower with the ball OOB----> count started---> thrower steps on court.

Should be interesting.......but as usual, I ain't judging anybody until I hear the 'splainin'.

SAJ Fri Jan 22, 2010 09:39am

I believe the inadvertant whistle caused this whole mess. I'm not penalizing a team for one of our screwups. Reset the play and move on.

It appears obvious the inbounder doesn't know his position on the floor. Looks like he gathers the ball after the shot, hears the whistle, then moves in to find out what the call is. Sees no action by an official and "attempts" to inbounds from his current location (likely because he's still in the same colored floor area). No excuse for his actions, but upon the whistle from the L moves to his correct location.

jdw3018 Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:19am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 654340)
6. The Seton Hall player attempts a throw-in pass from between the N and H in SETON HALL, which the LV defender blocks by CLEARLY reaching across the boundary plane and deflecting the ball just after it comes out of the thrower's hands and the ball bounces OOB twice and Greene catches it. The first bounce of the ball seems to be on the P in PIRATES on the tableside part of the end line, which means the ball was in the air for the length of the FT lane. No time comes off the clock during this action!
7. Greene does not penalize the LV player for his infraction. It should be a technical foul, class B.

Is the NCAA rule on boundary planes different than the NFHS?

If not, the deflection of the ball after it was released would be legal, would it not? Likely he had to reach across the plane of the boundary before the ball was released which should have resulted in a DOG warning?

Everything else I agree on. This was a mess.

bob jenkins Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:23am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdw3018 (Post 654383)
Is the NCAA rule on boundary planes different than the NFHS?

Yes.

LeeBallanfant Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:24am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAJ (Post 654363)
I believe the inadvertant whistle caused this whole mess. I'm not penalizing a team for one of our screwups. Reset the play and move on.

It appears obvious the inbounder doesn't know his position on the floor. Looks like he gathers the ball after the shot, hears the whistle, then moves in to find out what the call is. Sees no action by an official and "attempts" to inbounds from his current location (likely because he's still in the same colored floor area). No excuse for his actions, but upon the whistle from the L moves to his correct location.

The inbounder is Keon Lawrence who was out on $25k bail for driving the wrong way on the Garden State Parkway, so probably baselines etc. are much too difficult for him to comprehend.

Here is part of story from Newark Star Ledger with numerous inaccuracies. Free-throw woes almost cause collapse, but Seton Hall wins 80-77 over Louisville | Seton Hall Sports - - Seton Hall Sports - NJ.com

[FONT="Century Gothic"][SIZE="4"][SIZE="5"]"Pirates guard Keon Lawrence, who earlier yesterday turned himself in to New Jersey State Police and paid bail of $25,000 in Sayreville Borough Municipal Court in regard to a charge of assault-by-auto and driving with a suspended license from November, appeared to step over the baseline before inbounding the ball, before referee Jim Burr pulled him back(Tony Greene not Jim Burr and nobody pulled him back). [/B][/COLOR]Louisville coach Rick Pitino ran out to almost midcourt [B](he ran to baseline abut 5 feet onto court)[/B] arguing for a turnover. Seton Hall claimed it heard a whistle and saw Pitino calling for a timeout.

Confusion ensued with neither side exactly sure of what had happened.

“Keon said he wanted to get it out of bounds as soon as possible so the [B]clock would run down (The clock is going to run down after a field goal?).” Gonzalez said. “They said there was some kind of inadvertent whistle. I think a whistle blew that wasn’t supposed to blow, which kind of hurt us because now we’ve got to get it inbounds again. So I don’t know what happened.” (Well this is true)

KJUmp Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:24am

Nice job on the post Nevada...it explains (I guess) most of what happened in the sitch.
Am I correct in saying that the missing piece of information to all of us following this bizarre play is...why the whistle that occurred somewhere between 1.1 and 0.7?
What are the chances (if any) of any explanation of the play coming from the Big East?

BBall_Junkie Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:31am

I have watched the Zapruder film on this many times and am convinced that the man with the umbrella standing in section 102 blew the mysterious whistle.

Clark Kent Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:28pm

A few questions on this play that maybe some of you experts can help me with and maybe will just remain a mystery and can't be answered.

1. Why didn't they reset everything regardless of whether the whistle came from them or the stands? Wouldn't that have been the proper thing to do?

2. Why didn't they go to the monitor to check the time?

tjchamp Fri Jan 22, 2010 03:45pm

Strange Ending to Seton Hall Win - ESPN Video - ESPN

This link is much clearer, and sound is better. You can almost hear someone calling for a timeout at the same time as the whistle blows. It also looks like everyone stops moving at that point. It also looks like Pitino is getting up to get his players together for a timeout.

I think the SH kid thought a timeout was called, stepped on the court to go to his bench, then realized play was still live. So he instinctively threw the ball to the ref, who seems to be asking for it.

Nevadaref Sun Jan 24, 2010 02:33am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdw3018 (Post 654383)
Is the NCAA rule on boundary planes different than the NFHS?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 654386)
Yes.

The rule is different as bob notes. I have posted on this several times in the past. Under NFHS rules the defender may break the boundary plane as soon as the throw-in pass is released, but at the NCAA level he must wait until the ball breaks the boundary plane.

VolDoug Sun Jan 24, 2010 08:09am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 654949)
The rule is different as bob notes. I have posted on this several times in the past. Under NFHS rules the defender may break the boundary plane as soon as the throw-in pass is released, but at the NCAA level he must wait until the ball breaks the boundary plane.

So under NFHS rules, if a team was using the play where the throw-in player passes to a team mate who is also OOB to make the throw-in, it would be legal for a defender to intercept that pass and toss it back onto the court?

mbyron Sun Jan 24, 2010 08:25am

Quote:

Originally Posted by VolDoug (Post 654956)
So under NFHS rules, if a team was using the play where the throw-in player passes to a team mate who is also OOB to make the throw-in, it would be legal for a defender to intercept that pass and toss it back onto the court?

Nevada said it's legal to reach across when "the throw-in pass is released." In your play, would you say that has happened?

bob jenkins Sun Jan 24, 2010 01:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by VolDoug (Post 654956)
So under NFHS rules, if a team was using the play where the throw-in player passes to a team mate who is also OOB to make the throw-in, it would be legal for a defender to intercept that pass and toss it back onto the court?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 654960)
Nevada said it's legal to reach across when "the throw-in pass is released." In your play, would you say that has happened?

VolDoug: A hint to answer mbyron's question -- the answer to your question is, "Of course not."

just another ref Sun Jan 24, 2010 01:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 654996)
VolDoug: A hint to answer mbyron's question -- the answer to your question is, "Of course not."

A hint: You need to look up hint in the dictionary. :D

VolDoug Sun Jan 24, 2010 05:56pm

You guys get too "technical" sometimes :D !

I get it, I think, but I'm not about try to explain what I think I get :) !

Nevadaref Sun Jan 24, 2010 07:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by VolDoug (Post 654956)
So under NFHS rules, if a team was using the play where the throw-in player passes to a team mate who is also OOB to make the throw-in, it would be legal for a defender to intercept that pass and toss it back onto the court?

As others have already told you a pass behind the end line to an OOB teammate is not a throw-in pass. The throw-in pass is the one which goes into the inbounds area of the court. So what you ask would be illegal even under NFHS rules.

10.3.10 SITUATION B: After a field goal, the score is A-55, B-54. A1 has the
ball out of bounds for a throw-in with two seconds remaining in the game. A1
throws the ball toward A2 who also is out of bounds along the end line. B2 reaches
across the end line and grabs or slaps the ball while it is in flight. Time expires
close to the moment the official indicates the infraction. RULING: A technical foul
is charged against B2. The remaining time or whether Team B had been previously
warned for a delay-of-game situation is not a factor. No free throws are
awarded as the winner of the game has been determined. (9-2-10 Penalty 3, 4)


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