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jkumpire Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:55am

Anyone ever called this?
 
RE: Casebook 9.3.3c

A2, A3 set double screen for A1 to go for a 3ball.

B1 steps out of bounds to go around the double screen, and they get back in as A1 shoots it.

The ruling is it's a violation on B. A gets the ball at the POI, unless the shot goes in, then it's ignored.

Has anyone ever called this violation in a game on any level?

Thanks!

(Note: also posted on NFHS FORUM)

grunewar Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:01am

Nope.
 
I've called a violation on a player for being out of bounds exactly twice. Once running down the court out of bounds on the sideline and another running a good deal of the endline out of bounds. That is all. It's been a rare one for me.

jdmara Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:02am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkumpire (Post 653651)
RE: Casebook 9.3.3c

A2, A3 set double screen for A1 to go for a 3ball.

B1 steps out of bounds to go around the double screen, and they get back in as A1 shoots it.

The ruling is it's a violation on B. A gets the ball at the POI, unless the shot goes in, then it's ignored.

Has anyone ever called this violation in a game on any level?

Thanks!

(Note: also posted on NFHS FORUM)

Where does it say the violation is ignored if the try is successful?

Quote:

9.3.3 SITUATION C: A1 and A2 set a double screen near the end line. B3 intentionally goes out of bounds outside the end line to avoid being detained by A1 and A2. Just as B3 goes out of bounds, A3's try is in flight. RULING: B3 is called for a leaving-the-floor violation. Team A will receive the ball out of bounds at a spot nearest to where the violation occurred. Since the violation is on the defense, the ball does not become dead until the try has ended. If the try is successful, it will count. (6-7-9 Exception d)
-Josh

Adam Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:09am

Quote:

Originally Posted by grunewar (Post 653655)
I've called a violation on a player for being out of bounds exactly twice. Once running down the court out of bounds on the sideline and another running a good deal of the endline out of bounds. That is all. It's been a rare one for me.

I've called this violation exactly once, this year, on the offense (a weird year for me).

A1 had the ball near the sideline in his FC, trapped by two defenders and the sideline, but had not used his dribble yet.

He takes the ball and bounces it towards his endline, behind the defender, then runs OOB quickly to get around the defender before stepping in bounds to retrieve the ball. It stunned me for a second as I tried to determine whether he got IB before touching the ball; then I realized it didn't matter.

jkumpire Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:23am

Josh, read the play
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jdmara (Post 653656)
Where does it say the violation is ignored if the try is successful?

-Josh

If the violation is to be enforced all the time, then the ball would become dead immediately. This is a violation, not a foul. Please name for me a violation by the defense, not a foul, that allows both the score and the violation to be penalized.

I can understand why you think this is to be enforced; But this is one of the, if not the only, violation by the defense where the ball does not become dead immediately. It has such status for a reason.

Is this violation by the defense so bad that your penalize the defense by allowing the goal, and giving the offense the ball again? Is it really on the level of an intentional or technical foul?

bob jenkins Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:30am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkumpire (Post 653668)
If the violation is to be enforced all the time, then the ball would become dead immediately.

Not true. See 6-7 Excp d.

Quote:

This is a violation, not a foul. Please name for me a violation by the defense, not a foul, that allows both the score and the violation to be penalized.
Swinging the elbows and leaving the court.

Quote:

Is this violation by the defense so bad that your penalize the defense by allowing the goal, and giving the offense the ball again? Is it really on the level of an intentional or technical foul?
I'm not quite sure what you are asking here. If you're asking what the rule *IS*, then you're wrong. If you're asking what the rule *SHOULD BE*, then I would tend to agree with you.

Adam Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:32am

jk, there are other violations where the call is delayed and or enforced along with the basket. If a defensive player is swinging his elbows during a try that is successful, you penalize by counting the basket and giving the ball to A at the spot nearest the violation.

If, on a fast break for A, B1 steps out of bounds to try to draw the violation; you hold your whistle and wait for the shot attempt before killing the play. You then call the violation, count the basket, and give A the ball at the spot where B1 stepped OOB.

jkumpire Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:38am

Bob
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 653671)
Not true. See 6-7 Excp d.



"Swinging the elbows and leaving the court."



I'm not quite sure what you are asking here. If you're asking what the rule *IS*, then you're wrong. If you're asking what the rule *SHOULD BE*, then I would tend to agree with you.


Bob,

I stand by my statement even knowing the exception you and the other kind responder quoted.

Have you ever seen or heard of a defensive player being called for a violation of swinging their elbows instead of a foul? Would you call that violation in a game?

I'm sorry, I need to have someone on the Rules Committee or a state interpreter tell me that if the defense goes out of bounds that NFHS wants the goal counted and the violation enforced. That level of punishment is not given to the offense for the same violation, when the advantage gained by the offensive player is much greater than the defense.

Adam Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkumpire (Post 653677)
I'm sorry, I need to have someone on the Rules Committee or a state interpreter tell me that if the defense goes out of bounds that NFHS wants the goal counted and the violation enforced.

I have to ask, why isn't the case play enough?

BTW, you're really asking two separate questions, it seems.
1. Has anyone called it? I haven't called it, but I would if I saw it. Rebounders don't swing their elbows, as a rule, until they get the ball. And defenders don't step out of bounds. I've never actually seen it.

2. Is it really what the Fed wants?

Jurassic Referee Wed Jan 20, 2010 02:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkumpire (Post 653677)
I'm sorry, I need to have someone on the Rules Committee or a state interpreter tell me that if the defense goes out of bounds that NFHS wants the goal counted and the violation enforced.

The Rules Committee did tell you. And you cited it in your original post--->casebook play 9.3.3SitC.

It doesn't matter whether you like or agree with any rule. All you're expected to do is call it.

WOBW.

lloybra Wed Jan 20, 2010 03:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 653681)
I have to ask, why isn't the case play enough?

BTW, you're really asking two separate questions, it seems.
1. Has anyone called it? I haven't called it, but I would if I saw it. Rebounders don't swing their elbows, as a rule, until they get the ball. And defenders don't step out of bounds. I've never actually seen it.

2. Is it really what the Fed wants?

1. Yes, I've called it, and it has nothing to do with having the ball or not. See RULE 9-13-1: "A player shall not excessively swing his/her arm(s) or elbow(s), even without contacting an opponent." It says nothing about where the ball is.

2. It is what NFHS wants; that is why they put it in the rule book. If you wait to call a foul when contact is made, injury is a likely consequence. Also see RULE 4-24-8 where in reference to this rule NFHS states "...an official will promptly and unhesitatingly call such action with arms and elbows a violation."

Adam Wed Jan 20, 2010 03:47pm

FWIW, I agree with you; waiting on jkumpire's response.

Johnny Ringo Wed Jan 20, 2010 04:52pm

Back to the OP. A player runs baseline as part of the offense and steps OOB ... how many of you call this a violation on the offense?

zm1283 Wed Jan 20, 2010 04:54pm

I called a violation in a BV game last night on the offense for leaving the court for an unauthorized reason. Two of team A's players went OOB on the endline when I was Lead. I think one of them ran into someone and he barely went out, but his teammate went around both of them and almost ran me over, and I was standing a good 3-4 feet off of the endline.

jdw3018 Wed Jan 20, 2010 04:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo (Post 653835)
Back to the OP. A player runs baseline as part of the offense and steps OOB ... how many of you call this a violation on the offense?

Just steps once on the line? I pass...and likely don't even see it.

Runs completely OOB? I've called it.


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