Overturning an OOB call
 

Working with my regular and favorite partner last night. 2-person, BV, the kind of game I'd take every day of the week.

We had an out of bounds call on the endline that my partner just missed. It was in my primary and he missed a tip. I was 100% sure he missed it, so I immediately hit the whistle "tweet, tweet, tweet" and went in to tell him what happened.

Instead, once I got to him, he simply blew his whistle and pointed the other way. I never said a word.

Frankly, it was just perfect. Why else would I come in? If I bothered coming in (and I've only done it twice this season) he knows why.

Night off. I think I may spend it going to a college basketball game.

Sounds like a great partnership. I appreciate it, if I get it wrong, that one of my partners comes in and we get it right, and vice versa.

My partner and I have gotten in the habit of pointing on an OOB and making eye contact for this reason. We've seen many officials that will whistle, be very quick in verbalizing a color and pointing.

Then, when you have a situation as described in the OP there is always more consternation if you change the call. If you just point and make eye contact with partner and make a change in direction without the immediate verbalization - you have far fewer problems.

Working 2-person, there's always a ball or two that shoots out on a sideline (or something) when the L is looking in at post play, etc.

My partner and I use body language all the time. If it goes out and I start up the floor, my partner (if he needs help) only needs to look at me and see me "going the other way" and knows to "go the other way." Likewise, if the ball is staying at the same end, I'll take a step or two towards that endline.

Subtle communication, but it gets used at least once or twice a game. I'd rather keep my eyes in the post, etc. and need help on these occasionally.

The way we like to handle this situation is for the offiicial who is going to come and provide additional information to the calling official DOES NOT blow his whistle while coming to the calling official. If he blows his whistle he is drawing the attention of everyone in the gym to him, which makes it more difficult for the calling official to keep his own call IF HE MADE THE CALL FOR A REASON.

The calling official may have passed on a foul or some other action and awarded the ball to a team on purpose. We like to have the noncalling official come toward the calling official. If the calling official did what he did for a specific reason he will give the other official the stop sign, which turns that official around and returns him to his position. If the calling official allows the noncalling official to come to him, the call will almost always be changed BY THE CALLING OFFICIAL after receiving information he did not have or did not see.

Eh, I'm not fond of this. To each his own, I guess.

This has happened to me several times this year, so I've included this specific tidbit in my pregame and it's helped out a lot (with the partners who actually listen during pre-game :D).

From My Pregame ...
 

For out-of-bounds help, let's get it right. Come together for a change if needed. If I have no idea and I look to
you for help, just give a directional signal. No need to come to me. Just point. If you don't know, give me
a jump ball signal. If I signal but I get it wrong then blow the whistle and come to me. Tell me what you
saw and let me decide if I’m going to change it.

About two years ago, I had a partner come over to change my OOB call because he thought the ball "touched a player's shoelace" before going out.

He Moonlights As A Middle School Cafeteria Monitor ...
 

I think I know him, Old Eagle Eye.

I had one last night. I was L with the ball going out on the end line. Tweet "white" when I heard another whistle and my partner at T was slapping his hand. Then I blew and pointing the other direction "Blue!"

I watched the video and he was right, but that wasn't something we pre-gamed and although I prefer to get it right above all else, I also would prefer he/she come to me just in case I passed on a foul (in this case there wasn't anything to pass on).

On the subject of overturning OOB calls....

I was watching a D1 game in person a couple of weeks ago and John Higgins was one of the officials in the game. He was the C at the time and the ball went out right under the basket on the endline. The L pointed the other direction, which was the direction of the Visitors. Everyone in the arena knew the Visitors were the last to touch, except the L. Higgins came in strong with a whistle and just changed it himself. Didn't give info and let the L decide, just changed it. I'm assuming they pre-gamed it that way. Just interesting to see the difference in mechanics between those guys and the rest of us.

I usually just go to my partner and say something like, "Did you see the ball Hit blues foot/arm/head/crotch" Its up to him/her to decide if he wants to change the call.

Several times my partners have had such good looks all the way down the endline (2 person) and not changed their calls. All I tell coaches if they try and get on me, "Coach, you should have this discussion with my partner. I will make sure and tell him you want a word with him at my earliest convienience."

I wont ever sell a partner up a river without a paddle, but I sure as hell will get out of the way and let him shovel his own poop when he insists on squatting down and laying one in front of me :p.

Passing on a foul?
 

Newbie here. Actually prebie. I am considering an attempt to become an official in a couple of years, and thought I would use free time until that point to become as familiar with the rules as possible. This forum is helping a great deal in that regard.

Based on the above quotes, I am curious to get a rules reference for a situation I observed this past Saturday. Junior College game, NCAA rules. A1 controls a defensive rebound near the corner of endline and sideline in front of B's bench. B1 immediately picks up A1 in a full court man-to-man defense. B1 swipes at ball (looked like maybe a foul but maybe not) and causes A1 to lose possession, after which the ball clearly (from where I was sitting) goes off A1's knee and out of bounds on the sideline. T blows whistle and signals Team A's ball and spot throw-in on sideline. B's bench goes crazy. B's coach stands up and yells to T that the ball went off A1's knee. T says something to B's coach in an attempt at an explanation. B's coach then immediately yells, "then call a foul, you just can't give them the ball if it went off her leg." T ignores B's coach, administers the throw-in and the game proceeds without further incident.

Does anyone have a rules reference or explanation for the practice of "passing on a foul" and awarding the ball to the team that touched it last before going out of bounds? If this has been discussed before, I apologize, I couldn't find anything using the search function. Thanks for the help.

Pass on a Foul???
 

I am not sure why you would ever pass on a foul. Can anyone explain? I am also a newbie and this does not make sense to me.

Small tidbit here, but rather than thinking of this as "overturning" an oob call, I like to think of it as adding additional information. After that it's the calling official's decision on which way we go.

You must've been working the JV game in front of me the other night -- the one where there was 60 fouls and we got the V game started 35 minutes late. :mad::D

If there's a marginal bump and the ball shoots out of bounds some officials will simply call the out of bounds violation and life goes on (in the middle of the floor there's no leeway -- loss of possession due to contact and it's going to be called a foul).

Some are for it, some are against it, few are stupid enough to try to explain that to a coach. Silence can't be misquoted.

Why do we have some many different ways to cover a simple procedure…blow your whistle and come offer the information you have...if you partner wants to change his/her call fine...if not fine. By not blowing your whistle both teams may already be at the other end of the floor and then your partner overturns his call and we have to gather up all 10 players and bring them back down to the right end of the court. Giving your partner the "stop sign" can give the appearance that you are not working as a team and that you are unapproachable.

This is exactly right. You may or may not like it, but it's the expected call in some areas. Frankly, in this situation, I'd make a note of it and change the way I go about it. Around here, I have explained this to coaches (it's the expected practice) and they understand it. I've never had one question it after the explanation.

In this case, I'd simply stop doing it and start calling the fouls. I might even be inclined to change the initial call to a foul on B1 (assuming I remembered B1's number).

Thanks for the info
 

Rich and Snaq,

Thanks for the info. I'm not sure if I like it or not. My gut reaction is that I'm not a fan of passing on a foul. However, I could be convinced otherwise when I start calling games myself.

Correct me if I am wrong. A summary of your feedback is that the practice is not really supported by rule, but is a mechanic or technique to manage the flow of the game. Many, if not most, assigners or evaluators expect the technique to be used. So it is used.

Has anyone ever come accross an assignor or evaluator that specifically did not support the technique?

I don't want to speak for "most" areas, so I don't know how widely used it is. I can tell you the feedback I've gotten from the more senior refs in my association (the refs I've been told to listen to) on both formal evaluations and informal discussions has been to use this.

Now, there are two scenarios where this happens.

1. White contacts blue in the process of the ball going out of bounds off of white.

2. White contacts blue in the process of the ball going out of bounds off of blue.

1 may not actually be a foul, due to the advantage being negated by the ball going OOB. This is a legitimate no-call by rule.

2 is more sketchy by rule, but there are some locales where it's expected on slight contact that should, by rule, be a foul due to the result of the play.

Correct, that's why I don't blow my whistle when providing additional information. IMHO, blowing your whistle gives the perception your making the call, not your partner. It implies a disagreement.

In another scenario, If I'm not sure on a call, I blow whistle, raise hand, and look for help. Partner never blows in this situation either. In both cases it shows we're a team, and there is no alpha male in the group.

I blow my whistle to let everyone know that we *may* not be going to the other end of the floor. Yes, it tells everyone we're talking. But I'm not coming in unless I know we're going to change it (absent something I simply did not see) so 99% of the time he will change it.

I'm sticking to my view that when you blow, everyone thinks you're overiding your partner's call. You and your partner know what's going on but others don't

You don't need a whistle to let people know you are talking because you ARE talking, they can see that. Perception is reality, you blow your whistle after your partner blows his, crowd, coaches are now looking for you to overide everything. Bad precedent IMO

I would only blow if partner didn't see me and that could happen especially in two man if we're going the other way. That said, as a rule, I don't like to blow for reasons in previous post.