need advice
 

Today, in a highly intense Girls JV game, I was trail. Ball is right in front of me and all of the sudden it becomes loose, on its way going out of bounds. Two girls, both of opposite teams, reaches for the ball and I swear it was nearly simultaneously touched and goes out of bounds. I take a second to think about it and I say "simultaneously touched, jump ball" and the crowd goes wild. My partner, who shouldn't have even been looking at this play, comes over and says "I saw white touched it last, it is red's ball". Now I just looked like an idiot and says "Red's ball" and gives it to red, even though if I would have gone to the arrow it would have been white's ball.

The angle I was with it coming to me, it definitely looked like a simultaneous touch, while my partner and a few friends of mine in the stands said from their angle you could definitely see white touched it last. Any advice on how to avoid this situation? Let it be known that it was with about 10-15 seconds left and White was leading by 2 points at this exact moment.

You made a wrong call. Your partner provided information which allowed you to correct yourself and make the right call. From the OP it sounds like the problem is how he provided the information. He shouldn't have said anything loud enough for others to hear. He tells you what he saw, and if it convinces you, you have the authority to change your call.

Bottom line. Your call. He has no authority to change it.

he actually came over to me while the fans and coach were protesting, and told me. He didn't make it loud enough to be heard by everyone, but maybe the local 2 or 3 players standing around.

But in the end, I did feel like an idiot that maybe I did get the call wrong. From my angle, it definitely looked like a simultaneous touch. 50/50, I'm glad he came over to tell me what happened, but the other 50 I think he should've known he wasn't supposed to be looking there and let me there to get crucified. If coaches protested I would have went over and say "hey, from my angle it was a simultaneous touch and the ruling stands, end of discussion" and walk away.

I'm just a coach,
 

but for what it's worth, if this exact call had gone against me, I'd have felt like I had to just accept it if the other referee was adamant he saw it clearly.

I understand there is issues of whose primary it is, but whatever. I'd just look at it logically, and the other referee would have no reason to do that unless he was damn well sure what he'd seen. Tough break, accept it, move on is how I'd feel about it as a coach.

From the OP, I thought he had muscled you out of the call. Where your partner should or should not have been looking is for another thread. He told you what he saw, and apparently was certain of it. You trusted your partner enough to change the call. Nothing wrong with that.

The thing is though... I still feel like an idiot, and the HC of the Varsity team of the school that lost texted a buddy of mine prior to meeting him at the bar to say "he might be good for lower level game". This is a highly respectable coach in this league and I took big offense of that comment when I know that was the only f*ck I had the whole game. I referee'd a good game and for him to say that I would never do a varsity game just made me furious.

My main problem is how some of the current varsity officials, who I know are bullsh*t officials, actually get preferred by some coaches when I've been told that I am better than them. Officiating is yet another profession that has become too political, that you have to kiss @$$ to move up. I'm not that type and I may be hanging up my whistle soon just for that reason. I kiss no one's A$$ just to move forward.

This is probably the key to the whole thing.

Please emphasize what you mean. That team was the one that ended up getting the ball when it should have been given to the other team that had the AP, had I gone with that instead.

I mean the team that loses frequently blames the officials, whether it is in any way justified or not.

Gotcha.

This just goes back to what I said, I think last week, about the bogus scratched list.

Example: Close game, 10 seconds left, Team A down by one point. You call a foul on Team A that any decent or better official would have called, double bonus, Team B shoots and makes both FT. Team A now down by 3 points, and cannot make a 3-pointer at the buzzer. Of course that coach is going to try to to blame YOU, saying that was a bogus or bad foul, and end up scratching you. Coaches here are told that they can't scratch you because of situations like that, but who's gonna know why a coach scratched you? DO AWAY WITH THE F*CKING SCRATCH LIST, PLEASE!

What is considered a legitimate reason to be scratched?

I would assume something like a coach thinking the referee is too lazy, doesn't care, doesn't know the rules, etc.

What I'm saying is like, in a situation I had two years ago, I got scratched by a state-champion coach for a no-call in my area that my partner called, during a JV, summer-league scrimmage, and he scratched ME. My partner was a new guy that season, and we were running 3-man as a "practice" run so we could all learn it. The coach was just standing in the corner watching this, and that was NOT me that f*cked up, but my partner. He's in the cornet yelling "that's not a back court!!!" and I looked at him and said "he's a new guy, I'll explain it to him at the next break" but I guess he wasn't having any of it and thought I should have overturned him at that moment.

Let me remind you, this was JV, in the summer, a MOTHERF*CKING< GOD-D*MN SCRIMMAGE! Again, SUMMER where no one gives a f*ck! I was wrongfully scratched from that game and could never get back on his good side since he's such an arrogant B*STARD.

BTW, it was his JV team that was the home team tonight and won. I tried to talk to him after the game but he just walked right by me after we shook hands. I guess the handshake is a good start. Found out he doesn't have an email address, so should I call him at his listed phone number to talk to him? Just looking for advice, which is a little OT from the OP.

It seems that our young friend "representing" has some anger issues to deal with before he is ready to move up to the varsity level.

A few questions.

1. Did you partner come over in a confident manner?

2. Were you too close to the play? (depth wise)

3. Were you on top (looking down) or bottom (down looking up) on play

These MAY be a few things to take into consideration.


I believe, just my opinion, that slight hesitation displayed a little uncertainty on your behalf.

See, sale, and move on. Especially, a call that close... like the one you describe....

I think you may be right. It should go without saying, shouldn't it, that if indeed he was uncertain he could have made eye contact with his partner for possible help before signaling direction.

I agree 100%. I hate using the arrow on an OOB play. When it happens to me, I blow the whistle and raise my hand. I then look to my partner. If I get nothing after about 1.5 seconds, I go with the arrow.

When this happens, I welcome any help I get from my partner. After all, I want to look good, but I'd rather get the call right.

(Representing: It sounds like you are beating yourself up over this one. Actually, that is a good thing. Don't fly off the handle and start complaining about "scratch lists" and "politics". Think about the situation you were in and realize that you made a mistake. Think about how you will avoid making the same mistake again. Then, don't make that mistake again. I know it sounds like a lecture, but I'm really just trying to help.)

Do you think, just maybe, that there is something about the way those guys do things that the coaches like?

If you believe you're so good by what a few people say, you've gotta also believe it when they say your not.

Accusations of politics, more often that not, come form those who don't realize how much more they have to learn. Go ahead and hang up your whistle. There are plenty of people who'll be willing to put in the hard work to get to the top. To me, you sound like you just want quick and easy way.

Mr. Rust,

your assessment is just about right. You must have some adversity in order to improve. This situation the OP is discussing my have alot of external factors to go along with it. The ulitmate responsibility relies on the individual and what he/she can control. There is nothing in life easy worth having.

Rep:
I'm in agreement with what has been said by both Nevada and Camron. Listen to what these guys are telling you. I believe you're a somewhat newer official (probably not as new as me..2 yrs.) but the last thing any of us newer, non-certified, non patched, etc. officials should be worrying about are politics and/or what coaches/AD's, fans think of us. We shouldn't be wasting our time on stuff like..."this vet or that vet is horses**t, lazy, an a**kisser etc. We simply have too much to learn about this game. We have too much that we have to work on in our own game....mechanics, game management, positioning, rules application in game situations. (Working on stuff like that could have avoided or at least help you handle the sitch in your game better).
Focus on getting better in these and other areas and in time you'll make the lists, get the plum assignments, and most importantly, have earned the respect of coaches and fellow officials as a strong, solid referee.
Rather than paying attention to refs who feel are "not as good as you" and are getting playoff/big games...pick out one or two refs who you think are outstanding and say to yourself..."I want to be as good as those guys. How do I get there? What do I need to be working on and getting better at?
Hey, I still haven't made my board. When I achieve that goal, I'll still be years away from working the top divisions/teams let alone playoffs. But here's how I look at it, I can work hard and be the best JV ref out there, or be the best board official who hasn't worked a playoff game. Just try to get satisfaction at being the best you can be...and what you can do to get better.
If all you're going to be is a ref who worries about "politics"...hang up the whistle. Just my two cents partner, I do wish you well.

Interesting.....
 

The thread went from - my partner had information that apparently was delivered in the fairly correct manner which helped me make a proper call, which I didn't like because now I look like an idiot..... to, now folks think I'm incompetent and I hate the politics of officiating. Big leap.

Representing - many offiicials in many games have their partners go TWEET, TWEET, TWEET, come across the gym and whisper something into their ear. You see it on tv all the time. Best thing to do (IMO) is nod your head and decide whether you are going to accept this info or not. If you do - put the ball in play and let's go. If not - put the ball in play and let's go. Don't feel like an idiot - Your team got the play right. It happens to most of us, and maybe someday you'll do it too (albeit differently if you like).

As for politics, we've had this conversation many times on the Forum before. It is what it is. Politics is in the work place, the neighborhood, the bar, the rec league, etc. Work within it or not - your choice. But, it's tough to avoid.

Excellent advice for the newer official, and maybe some not-so-new ones.

Great attitude.

You are wise beyond your experience.

This is the post that is really telling.

From what I read here this young official badly wants the praise and recognition of this coach. He is almost obsessed with him. He is somehow in awe of this coach because he won a state championship. He is terribly upset that this guy scratched him and desperately desires to get back into his good graces. He completely threw his partner under the bus to this coach during a scrimmage when he should have had the good sense to keep his mouth shut. Now he seeks to talk with this coach and win him over. He is even pleased that they shook hands following a JV game. The content of this post sickens me, and that's completely apart from the immature and juvenile profanity the author uses in a frustrated attempt to express himself. He wonders why he has trouble moving up in the officiating ranks.

We have some officials with these same characteristics in my local association. They so badly want to work the top games and have everyone tell them how wonderful they are. It's all about them being at the center of attention with the bright lights on them. The sad truth is that these people are among the worst officials in our entire group. They just have the wrong mental make-up for officiating.

The amusing aspect of all of this is the official is convinced that he was scratched because of a call that his partner made. He never even considers that it might have been his own behavior in interacting with this coach that earned him a block.

I'm assuming he got blocked for throwing his partner under the bus, to be honest. That, and coaches really don't like it when we let our partners make an obviously wrong call only to "explain it to him at the next break."

Get used to it. That is, get used to having additional information given to you (or by you) on OOB plays (depending on the specific location of the play and the officials). It happens several times a season to all of us. You shouldn't feel like an idiot on this.

I mean this with all respect, but given your posts here (on the rules and mechanics), I'm not sure you are as good as you think you are. Having a healthy ego is fine, and needed to be a good official. Having an over-inflated ego is not. And, given your attitude toward "politics", it might be best for you if you did step away for a while.

Nothing good can come of this, and the fact that you even thought about it for more than a nano-second means that you care too much what the coaches think ("feel") about you and are in this to "please the coaches." Until you are in it only to do the best job you can *for the game* and let the coaches think / feel what they want you will not advance. It's a paradox -- you can't make the coaches happy until you don't care if they are happy.

LOL! Nevada, I think you are on-point! :cool:

This is right on. I believe that you absolutely must let no outside influences affect your judgment or management of the game. If you do, it will lead to trouble. If you don’t, you will be recognized and respected.

Rep, I know that these may have been some tough pills to swallow, but heed the advice given. As a ref it is imperative that you listen to input from your brethren. It will make you better.

Thanks for all the tips, criticisms and advice. I want to be honest about last night, I went to the bar with some of my officiating buddies, and I may have had a few too much that I just did not control myself properly. For that, I apologize for the way my attitude was expressed through the posts in this thread.

Rep,
One of the characteristics of a varsity official is the ability to make a decision during crunch time of games. In your own words, you indicated "nearly simultaneous." This tells me that SOMEONE hit it last. Your hesitation to go one direction or the other may have provided the coach with reason to believe that you are not YET ready -- coach did not appear to say NEVER -- to do varsity games. While that may be a bit of a blow to your ego, use it as a motivator to continue to get better.

We all miss calls. Sometimes, we miss calls late in games. My guess is that there were some other things during the game when combined with the play in the final 12 seconds caused the coach to make his statement.

If it is nearly simultaneous, you need to identify who it hit last. If you are not sure, you can look for help from your partner (hand up to kill the clock and no immediate directional signal). Hopefully, your partner reads it and can help you if you need it. BUT, "nearly" should have generated a call other than "not sure" (which is what the held ball indicates).

Here's a few pieces of advice that I received early in my officiating career:
1. Only worry about what you can control.
2. Do things the right way so when you make it you don't have to explain yourself or apologize to anyone.

This has worked for me so far.