Not using it any more.
 

I know Tomegun will love this thread. :)

I am not using the stop sign anymore. It does not work. I hate using it. It does not stop coaches for doing anything. It does nothing but make them more upset. I am tried of doing it because it does not work. I have given more Ts this year as a result of that stupid sign and I refuse to use it anymore.

Now I feel better.

Peace

What Alternative?
 

What alternative have you adopted in lieu of?
Around here (across the lake from you) it seems to be universally accepted by coaches. Not that they particularly like it; but they seem to understand it.

If it is universal, it certainly is not working or the message is not being sent. I will go back to what has worked. I will say what I need to say and if they choose to act silly, I will just do what I have to do. Obviously public pronouncements have not worked for me. And for the record this was a coach from another state. I have given two coaches from other states that seem to not know what the "universal sign" means. In the past I have just gone to a coach quietly and said what I needed to say. No one knows what I am saying to them. No one knows that I have told them to knock it off. It is very quite and if I had to T them I wait for an outburst that crosses the line. That has worked much more for me than any stop sign. And people live by it but I see more Ts from it than not.

Peace

Had pretty good seats behind the Wisconsin bench for NU/Wisc game last week and as Ted Valentine is running past Bo Ryan, the stop sign AND zip it with hand to mouth came up. Don't mess with Ted.

I'm with you, the stop sign never works for me, and I'm not comfortable with it, I'd rather verbally tell 'em

Hey, bumped into your partner MV from last week.

JRut, can I ask what prompted you to start using it this year? My experience with it is pretty limited but unsuccessful.

It works if; 1) it's followed up with a T if not heeded, 2) the coach has seen it in action before (and the consequences).

Friday we had a coach complaining about us, and not how his team seemingly couldn't play defense without doing arm extensions on rebounds.

He chirped at one partner, who gave the "I hear you" wave as we moved into the front court. (The wave is the step before the sign.)

We then have an inbounds, I'm T in front of him. HC chirps off again. Stop sign goes up. *Tweet* to each partner: "Coach has been warned."
He calmed down after that. I

For us, it worked.

It works pretty good here.

We give the stop sign, then have the scorer record it in the book, the same way college officials can record a coaching box warning in the book.

Since we began doing this two seasons ago, I've found it very effective. I would say 9 out of 10 times, we finish the game without a T.

This seems to be the most effective tool in my arsenal. But make sure you actually warn them, AND, more importantly, make sure you follow things up as needed.

I pregame this as the R. The first thing we talk about in pregame is SHTF situations on behavior and any T's that result. As far as starting out, something along the lines of:

1) If you can handle it, handle it as you see fit. I.E., say whatever you need to say to calm them down, for example. But let everyone know next dead ball.
2) If 1 doesn't seem to be working, during a dead ball, tell the coach something to the effect of, "I've heard you and that needs to be the last word on that..." At THAT point, do the commented part above. Remember, this is after 1 has failed.
3) At that point we all know where we are at. We CAN go back to one if an official feels that will work, but we do not go back to 1 AND 2. The second version of "2", if you will, will be a T.

After 3, we get into how we handle the T if one is called, but we can save that outline for a different post.

Does this work perfectly every time as drawn up? No. Do we sometimes go back to "1" too many times, thinking we can resolve the issue ourselves? Yes. But this is just a framework for dealing with the coaches.

For the most part it only incites the recipient of the stop sign. It can be the equivalent of "not another word" and it can actually back you into corner.

I have found that saying "it's time to move on" works in most cases for me.

I just did not decide to do it this year, I have been told to do it by many in the past. I have almost always not been an advocate of it, but many claim it works. So I have decided recently to try it in a few situations after much deliberation. It is clear it does not work for me. It has actually lead to a couple of Ts when I used them.

Peace

I have found it to work very well. The verbage that goes along with it varies per the situation and/or my relationship with the coach. I never use the words "Not another word" when using the Stop Sign, because another word always follows. Usually "We are not going to talk about this anymore coach" is enough. I may follow with a "I heard you. Let's go", and I move on. If he continues, I give him the consequence.

I agree, I think it puts us in a box. Then when they continue to act up or talk, then you have to do something. I would rather ignore a coach than make this an issue by showing everyone I have heard enough.

Peace

I totally disagree with this protocol. It seems that instead of having a T in 9 out of 10 times, you have some warning which doesn't exist and isn't part of the rules recorded in the scorebook. In my opinion this procedure screws the team which does not receive such a warning during the game. If the opponent was behaving in an unsporting manner, then it should be penalized as called for in the rules. But if your entire association agrees to do otherwise...

I may be repeating what others are saying, but after reading your post I wanted to immediately respond.

The stop sign is a good sign, whether it works on coaches or not. Everyone will see it, including your partner(s). ESPECIALLY your partner(s). This tells your partner(s) "this coach has been given a warning to shut up, next time he/she get's the big T". I use it all the time and will make eye contact with my partner(s) so he/she/they know that the coach has been given a warning and next time it is the big "T". That way there's no second warnings if one of your partner(s) has a problem with the same coach.

The stop sign is a good signal. Everyone will see it and will know that next time the coach will probably get a deserved "T". That's all I have to say.

So can you point out which signal it is to me on the chart in the back of the rules book? I'm having trouble locating this NFHS approved signal.

Never said it was approved. Just saying that it is an obvious sign as to what it means. No one in their right mind is going to think this signal is like saying "hey coach, I want you to yell at me some more and get the fans all wiled up so that they can yell at me even more and let this game get out of control".

I think my point is made. Going to bed now

Actually, it means "you've just yelled at me in an unsporting manner, but I'm not going to penalize you." It's totally useless.

The problems I have are these. A signal like this is not anything official, so it has no specific meaning.

Everyone will see it?

How do we know what everyone sees?

(Everyone) will know that next time the coach will probably get a deserved T.

Every will know what he will probably get? This would mean that everyone will also know that he may not get anything.

Give a stop sign if you want. Not saying it absolutely won't help. I just say not to depend on anyone knowing that it has any certain meaning, because it doesn't.

You are correct it is not an approved signal. However, some states associations would like for you to use it before penalizing.

JRut,

The premise I see from your post is. You had to penalize coaches from states outside of yours. Have you giving thought, that their local officials may not use the STOP sign.?

Yeah, you got me. I'm sorry.

What I'm saying is the most important thing is that the coach gets one warning (unless sever which would be automatic T). The stop signal and saying "Coach, I've heard enough" is all you need to do to let the coach know that a T is coming if he/she keeps it up. Next time, give a T.

End of story, heading to bed cause I gotta get up in two hours for work. Night all.

I'm not saying that I use the Stop Sign. I'm just saying that I found it in the "NFHS Basketball Officials Manual".

2.5.3 Warnings:
.......B.4. A warning of this nature is typically given verbally ("This is your warning coach") and visually (holding up the one-handed "stop sign").

Same in three-person......... 3.5.3.B.4.

Personally, I believe that a coach already had his/her warning before the game even started. It's right there in the "Coaches Code of Ethics".......)

(Ok now I'm being just plain silly......

Oh, it's in there all right, but when mentioning it please don't forget to notice what it says in 3.5.3 B1: "Though no provision provides for this in the rules book..."

You are correct, sir!

Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

Thank you, oh rules writers, for this pewky pearl of prose.
http://planetsmilies.net/vomit-smiley-31.gif

I see that you have nicely kept with the "p" alliteration. ;)

You would have to assume that all officials are using the "stop sign" in my area. I do not know that every official has to use this or tries to use this. So it is not about the area, it is about the coach. If it works I would not have to give a T. I am just not convinced it works and I think it incites more than it stops actions. And it has nothing to do with approved or not approved signal. I think I will get back to the words I use and make it very clear they have crossed a line or just stick them when appropriate.

Peace

Are you actually saying that on the first instance of any unsporting yelling you'd issue a technical foul? Always?

While I find the stop sign silly, I do believe in shutting down bad behavior without shooting free throws when possible rather than pulling out a sledgehammer to kill an ant.

My problem with the stop sign is that it comes across as dismissive. We talk all the time about how coaches should not be allowed to show us up, yet this signal does that very thing to the coach. Geese and Ganders come to mind here.

I've had much better success speaking quietly to them and letting them vent (appropriately), and I've witnessed good veteran officials do the same.

If your association wants you to do it so you have something the video will catch, so be it. I don't need that, as my report (every T gets one here) will be good enough for my assigners.

It's Black, It's White
It's Tough For You
To Get By
It's Black , It's White, Whoo

It's Black, It's White
It's Tough For You
To Get By
It's Black , It's White, Whoo

This.

It's a very public admonishment which rarely, IMO, helps the situation. It may help CYA if you need that kind of video evidence for an assignor, but I see no way it's better than a quiet verbal message that conveys the same thing but doesn't show the coach up to the entire gym.

My point was just a thought. I got you.

I completely agree. They act more like...."How dare you tell me to be quite...." And that is why it does not work for me.

This has worked well for me for years. Then if I had to give a T afterward, the coach never felt that I was trying to embarrass them.

Coaches know why they get Ts. They try to act like they are innocent, but they know why. And even if you use it on tape, a coach can still claim they did nothing wrong. The coach I T'd up yesterday made the claim he did not curse, which for me is the least of my concerns.

Peace

Use whatever method personally works best for you.

The stop sign IS dismissive, and that is the point!

By rule, the coach does not have a right to display dissent to officials calls. Coaches also ARE NOT tasked with administering the game and the rules! He is there to COACH his players. I fail to understand where coaching his players include the right to yell at officials.

The stop sign is not appropriate for every situation, just like talking quietly with the coach isn't appropriate for every situation. It is another tool for the tool bag that "good veteran officials" will learn how to use at the right time. I cannot tell you when/where you should use the stop sign, but in my area, it has been a HUGELY EFFECTIVE warning to coaches, and since officials have started using it in the last few year or so, it has helped manage coaches away from ejections.

Hey, in baseball, once that hand comes up, that IS the 1st technical. My next action is ejection!

As to comments about "record it in the book". I will utilize the book in any way I see fit to keep track of warnings. In our area, we are asked to have the book record delay of game warnings. I don't find it a stretch that we can use it to record a warning to a coach. Also, as I learned in baseball, doing this ALSO has a positive effect on the coach settling down, because in his mind, this has become an "official" warning. He knows he is going to have a hard time arguing his eventual ejection when there is a paper trail of is sins on the court. :)

Does any of this work for every coach? Nope! That is why there is the technical (personally, I think in basketball that if you have issued a stop sign warning, or any kind of verbal warning to a coach, next step should be ejection...that gives it BITE!). No technique works every time, nor is every technique the end all solution for every situation. Again, it is another tool to use. Officials much better than anybody posting here have deemed it useful, and most organizations have bought on. Not my place to question that. ;)

I have found over the years that as I become more open minded about using these techniques, I gain better outcomes.

I will admit though, I am no fan of in NFHS baseball where you can restrict a coach to the bench. I haven't heard where it has worked more often than not. In my informal polling of umps doing sub-varsity games (they seem to be the guys that use this "tool" the most) most complain that the coach still does what he was doing before, just from the bench now. Of course, I tell the umps that they will probably need to explain to the coach that they cannot do that anymore, but that is offset by why should I be informing the coach of his rights? He has a rule book too!

So, my point is, yeah, I have dug in my feet on a suggested mechanic that I don't feel works too well. I have to admit though, a few guys I have talked to LIKE the ability to restrict a coach to the bench in baseball, and use it quite a bit when appropriate. I find other ways to manage the coach. Maybe one day I will give it another shot.

So, the stop sign just may not be for everybody. But, if it isn't for you, don't write it off!

LOL That would be the simple way of saying what I just said. ;)

I fail to see where anyone in this thread has said this. With whom are you arguing, chief?
Um, it's not just your area, it's in the rule book. Tha'ts the difference:Some of us do find it a stretch. However, all of us have acknowledged that if that's how it's done in your area, so be it. Again, with whom are you arguing here? Rest assured, if I T a coach his sins will be documented. But I'm not concerned about whether he argues it to the state or my assigner. I'll get the backing I need.

You're kidding, right?
Most? Really? Have you done a scientific poll to determine this? I've been in three different metro organizations, none of which promoted use of the stop sign.

So we can't question the stop sign (not an NFHS signal), but you can question an official NFHS tool in baseball?

Wow.

I didn't write it off, I've merely expressed my opinion as to why I don't use it anymore. That's all I've seen anyone do in this thread.

What is your point?

You're right, that's a much more concise way to word my post.

I made mine with clarity. Are you just taking jabs at me with yours? You seem to have another agenda.

While I know this doesn't agree with the Rules of God Nevadaref, please do not attempt to put words in my mouth.

I never said it was something that is part of the rules. It's a local mechanic that our association uses.

We don't use the warning if the behavior warrants a T. We use the T.

Therefore, the other team is not screwed.

You responded to my post with this statement: I'll ask it clearly, where did I or anyone imply any of these things that you so vehemently disagree with?

Now, I will ask, where does it say the coach doesn't have the right to display dissent?

You did a great job of burning down some strawmen, but I never really got your point. No one has said the alternative to the stop sign is allowing rampant unsporting behavior. My experience has been the opposite, in that unsporting behavior has always followed when I've used it. Is it possible I'm using it incorrectly? Sure, but I'm not the only one with this opinion.

Perhaps you can share with my what my agenda appears to be, as I'm not aware of it.

BS.

"In my opinion this procedure screws the team which does not receive such a warning during the game. If the opponent was behaving in an unsporting manner, then it should be penalized as called for in the rules."

That's exactly what NevadaRef said.

Sorry, I tend to forget his posts shortly after reading them; this was no exception. Looks like I need to be more careful when making categorical statements about threads in which Nevada has participated.

Yes you should, as you were almost sounding like one of his disciples! :D

First off. Its not an either/or verbal warning or stop sign. Its a gesture I use while speaking to the coach. Think of it as me being the classic Italian Godfather who speaks with his hands. ;)

There's nothing in the rulebok about me applauding when an injured player is helped to their feet and to the bench, but I do that too. SHould I refrain from showing some sportsmanship and/or goodwill along with the crowd and both teams? Thats another gesture. I have never advocated walking up to a coach and in my best Charlie chaplin imitation give him the "talk to the hand" sign. That would be ludicrous and if you think any referee is advocating that you have a pretty poor opinion of some of your posters without ever having seen them work which strikes me as pretty arrogant. :rolleyes:

It works for me.

Where did I leave those two words I'm looking for?

After E and T. :)

I have tried to look at the stop sign from the perspective of the recipient. This includes using it at home. If you have a point to make and to me it sounds imagined or ridiculous (or whatever) and I give you the stop sign or simply dismiss your point. What is your response? Most would only become more upset for not allowing you to express your point of view or concern.

A simple acknowledgement can be much moer effective than a stop sign. A signal that basically says "shut up, don't talk back to me."

If it becomes bad enough, give them their warning, everyone will understand that as well.

Snaqs, that's gonna leave a mark for sure!:p

After all my debating on this topic, I actually used it tonight; on a player.

I'll still never use it on a coach again, but I thought of this thread immediately after using it on the player.

I don't use it anymore, but that is what happens after 27 years of marriage. :D

MTD, Sr.