bad information
 

JV-G game. At 3 minutes in the 4th quarter R goes to table and asks for time outs left to each team. Scorer says Home has 0 time outs left and Visitors have 1. R conveys this information to each coach. At 1 minute left, Visitor coach calls a time out. R grants the time out, reports it and has the timer start the clock. Scorer then tells the R that Visitors, in fact, had no timeouts left and that earlier she had made a mistake and should have said Home had 1time out and Visitors had 0. (The 16 year old scorer just reversed the time outs and there was no visitor book to cross check). R now assesses a tech to the Visitors. Visitor coach is understandably upset having taken a time out that she was informed she had and then assessed a tech for not having it. The tech was assessed, both shots made, and she lost by 1 point.

Once the time out had been granted, was there any other option than the one we took?

No.

But, you could have avoided the situation by not telling the coach she had one left. Only inform them when they have zero left.

Wow....that sux.

This.

I never tell a coach anything regarding timeouts until they have used their final one. There is nothing in the book telling us to inform coaches how many they have when they still have some, and not getting in that habit keeps incidents like this from happening.

I never tell a coach anything about the timeout situation, and I don't even care to know myself. If one is requested, I'm obligated to grant it. Isn't this the job of their scorekeeper or assistants? Much like I don't care to know to know if a player has no fouls or 4. If I missed in the manual where it's my job to know this stuff, let me know. Wow, do I seem grumpy today?

I got out of that habit a long time ago. When they use their last, I tell them. I don't say anything before that.

What happens when you guys tell a coach they have no more TO's, and later they find out they did? Not as bad as using too many, but it's still an issue. That's why I say nothing. Though now I vaguely recall that we are supposed to inform them when they have used their allotment. Please inform.

It's under scorer's duties, 2-11-6, (paraphrasing)
notify a team and its coach, through an official, when that team has been granted its last timeout.

First Topic for New Forum ! ! !
 

What a great first topic for the soon-to-be-launched "Table Officials' Discussion Board" ! ! ! :)

When it's a game where either coach has been calling time out a lot during the game, I will go over table to check how many times out each team has left during a time out. Around here, some of the scorers know to tell the officials when a team has no timeouts left. I just like to know for reference if a team only has one or two time-outs left, and will let my partner know. I sometimes tell the coach when he/she has no more time outs, sometimes I don't. But I never tell them if they have 1-5 times outs left just because of the risk of this error. Teams should have a scorer (when visiting) to notify them when they are out of TOs. Coaches should also keep track (in V games usually one of the AC does this) or ask the scorer how many time outs they have left when they know they've used up at least 3.

Although it feels injustice, you did do the right thing to assess the T. However, I wouldn't have told the coach she only had one time out left.

I agree with everything you said, except for this sentence. You should start always telling a coach when he/she is out of time outs. While it's a duty of the scorer, the scorer is to inform them through an official. So once a scorer confirms to you a team has exhausted its alloted TOs, you have a duty to inform them.

When I coached, I had three rubber bands on the left wrist (full TOs) and two on the right wrist (30s, or 20s back in the day) and took one off each time I used one up.

Agreed.

Precisely, that said do you ever ask table where are we on TOs? And if table relays info to you just as assistant wanders over to catch tail end of conversation, poses question to you how many left? Do you play Marcel Marceau and point to table or relay info?

I really don't want to know unless one team is dead. IMO, that's what an assistant is for.

What does Bob do?

It's simple. Prior to the game starting, I tell the table to let us know only when a team gets into the bonus or double bonus, when a player has five fouls and when a team has used it's last timeout. Other than that, we don't want to know the status of any of those issues.

I would refer the AC to the scorekeeper.

Thanks JD. I knew I was going to get some comments from that sentence, if anything, but I've learned to be honest with you guys. Honestly will bring more constructive criticisms! :)

OK. So, for the sake of argument (that's why we have discussions, right?), as an official/scorer, they FAILED to notify this coach he had zero timeouts left. While not being part of their prescribed duties, it is EXPECTED that the scorer is keeping track of TOs taken throughout the game, otherwise, they would not know when a team has taken five.

I know what Nevada and some others are going to do here, but, in this case, we are going with the scorer's information that was communicated TO THE COACHES. I am going to grant the time out, NOT assess a technical foul and inform the scorer to more closely keep track of timeout counts in the future.

I can only assume that the coach was NOT properly notified when he/she had taken their last time out. Based on information provided FROM the OFFICIAL SCORER, the coach used that information and was PENALIZED significantly.

What is the penalty levied against the scorer/official for FAILING to properly notify a coach that he/she has taken his/her final allowable time out? Do they get a pencil inserted somewhere? Penalizing this team in this instance is NOT consistent with our jobs of keeping the game fair.

jmo.....Yes, I am thinking as a coach, but I would NOT want to win a game this way, either. In this case, one coach's pain is another's gift. Therefore, my view is actually "coach neutral" in this case.

Let's assume no information came from the table, then the coach requests a TO and you find out it's excessive. Are you going to ignore the T?

This error is no different than a scoring error that may change the outcome of a game, or an official's error in putting the ball in play with 6 players on the court. There is a penalty.

Is it fair to the opposing team that the coach gets to use an excessive timeout at, possibly, a very critical point in the game? Perhaps it prevents a turnover that would have given the opposing team a chance to win? Does your point of view change if it is the home team that is given bad information by their own scorer?

I hope you'll re-think your position here. While unfortunate, the excessive timeout needs to be penalized.

1) I ask only if I can't remember. I try to know how many of each type so when they've used all their 30s (for example) I can just grant a full without asking "how long" and getting the "I only have fulls, you dumbass" look back.

2) Coaches usually say something like "two left, right?" If the information agrees, I acknowledge it.

[/I]

This is good stuff. Reminds me of a chain crew I had this season for football. Home team was playing poorly and I hear the crew say, "better get them out". They all put a sucker in their mouth. I ask what that's about and they inform me that 2 of them have kids playing and they do that at times to keep from coaching from the sidelines when they are not allowed to. I liked it alot, they were great guys, did a great job, and I reccommended them for the state championships.

1) And from an officials' standpoint, if you do so:
a) You just knowingly screwed the other team
b) You may have cost yourself your career by doing so
If you pull that one at the state playoff level with it's attendant spotlight and publicity, you may never work at that level again. And if a complaint comes in against your actions, pray tell just what you are going to say to respond to that complaint.
It's never a good idea to ignore a plainly written rule just because you don't agree with it. And it's never a good idea to advocate that other officials should do so either. Two wrongs don't make a right.

2) It could possibly cost them their job. But that's got nothing to do with us either. That's the responsibility of whoever is assigning the table crew. It's their job to deal with it, not ours.

3) Yes, I am thinking as an official...

Below is a link to the "Instructions to & Duties of the Scorer for Basketball Games"

http://www.nfhs.org/Workarea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=2867

Under "Notify the Nearer Official" it states:
1. The bonus penalty is in effect for the 7th, 8th & 9th team foul in each half. The bonus display indicates a second free throw is awarded for all common fouls (other than player-control) if the first free throw is successful. The proper bonus panel, such as (H for home & V for visitor) shall be displayed after the penalty for the sixth team foul has been administered. Another method is to activate a light or device nearest the basket of the team which is to receive the bonus.
2. The 10th team foul occurs each half. Thereafter, the bonus (2nd free throw) is awarded for a common foul (except player control) whether or not the first is successful.
3. Any player is charged with his or her 5th foul (personal or technical), the 2nd technical foul is charged to any team member, bench personnel, directly to the head coach, or the 3rd technical foul is charged to the head coach.
4. Either team has been granted its allotted charged time-outs or an excess time-out.
5. The ball is dead or in control of offending players team if:
a. Player has not reported.
b. Player’s number changed.
c. Player is illegally in game.
6. The ball is dead, if there is a score dispute or doubt about an official’s decision.
7. Any player enters while wearing an illegal number.
8. The ball is dead and the clock is stopped or running, if the coach requests that a correctable error as in 2-10, or a timing, scoring or AP mistake be prevented or rectified.

What usually happens is that they disagree and we'll figure it out right then.

And yes, we are supposed to inform them at "0".

While i generally agree with your point, I think you'll agree that "never" is a little too broad....unless you normally call and advocate the calling of a multiple foul. :)

JR,
I passed this question along to one of our local rules interpretors. His view, interestingly, was basically the same as mine. Since the information came from the Official Book, that informatoin is, well, official. Therefore, he would not allow such a change to take place in the book, thus granting the timeout without penalty.

I have posed the exact question to numerous officials since this posting hit this past week. NOT ONE official that I have presented this situation to would call this technical foul. One official who has worked a State Final indicated that he would have, when informed of the error by the timer, not grant the timeout (since the coach would not have requested it had he not been informed that he did, indeed, have one). He would have immediately put the ball back in play and not allow any subs.

That's because you didn't ask me. Of course, you didn't have to as you already know what I would do. ;)
Oh, and I've worked several State Finals, if that means anything to you.
Coaches should be able to count to five. It is their responsibility to know how many time-outs they have used and have remaining.

An interesting question then: how many coaches actually keep track of their own time-outs via either their clipboard or another peice of paper?

Why always trust the scorebooks when not always do the scorebooks keep track?

That's what assistant coaches are for. :)

Interesting. You have a local rules interpreter that advocates ignoring a very plainly written rule. And you haven't found any officials at all in your area that would also also follow a plainly written rule--for whatever reasons. And you've got a state final official that also wouldn't follow a plainly written rule. A state final official that would grant a TO, find out that it's an excess TO, and then cancel the TO so that he didn't have to call a "T". I'd love to see your state final official make that call at the end of a state championship game. Fwiw and if it'll make you feel better, Chris Webber would probably agree with that state official in a heartbeat though . :) Methinks that your area has a heckuva lot of work to do in the education of their officials. Note that's jmo.

In my experience, I don't know one good official that wouldn't make that call. They might not like the rule personally and they also personally might not want to follow the rule, but they would do it. the caveat obviously is that I and they are not in your area(I think).

And information from the scorebook is..well... official? Cool. Gee, I take it that under that philosophy we can't go back and correct any scorer's errors made under rule 2-10 or fix any scorer's mistakes under rule 2-11-11 either. Heckuva idea ...and a heckuva rules interpreter you got there, Coach.:) Btw, mentioning rule 2-11-11, I guess your rules interpreter never read the l'il sentence in there that says "A bookkeeping mistake may be corrected at any time until the referee approves the final score. Nope, once it's entered in the scorebook, it's ..well...official. :)

And right there, folks, you'll find the biggest difference between how a coach thinks and how an official thinks. A coach thinks that a rule should only be valid and enforced if it's fair to his team in his opinion. An official knows that the rules were written trying to be fair to BOTH teams, and that if we won't follow a plainly written rule it not only gives an unfair advantage to one team but it unfairly penalizes the other team at the same time. You only worry about YOUR team, coach. But we have to worry about BOTH teams. And if we don't call that deserved "T" in the play being discussed, we just screwed the other team.

Sorry, coach, we completely disagree philosophically on this one and we always will.

Ultimate responsibility for knowing how many time outs have been called lies with the coach. That's why the T for calling an excess TO goes to the coach, not the scorer or the team or (ha) the official.

The scorer and officials do their best to assist with that count. But just as we help with but don't bear responsibility for ensuring the proper number of players on the court, we help with but don't bear responsibility for teams taking the correct number of TO's.

Agree
 

I dont say anything to coaches about how many TOs they have left for the exact reason of potential misinformation from the table. And when I have a partner who comes back from the table and says "white has 1 '30' and 1 full left" I politely let them know I don't care.

It is not my responsibility as an official to track TOs. That lies with the coaches and the official book. My job is to grant the TO if it is requested by the HC or a player on the court. I routinely see benches with 4 or 5 asst coaches these days. The HC should have one of them be in charge of tracking TOs. Thats what we did when I coached.

Honestly, I did not know the rule that the scorer is to communicate the last TO through an official. I will start doing this but it is still the responsibility of the scorer to let the officials know. I will not seek out this information.

Bottom line is that coaches are responsible for their TOs. They should have an asst keep track and double check with the book. As an official Im going to grant a TO if called. And if its excessive then Im going to administer the proper penalty. IMO its hard enough to call a good game without worrying about things that are other people's responsibilities.

Really? I have yet to encounter even a middle school scorebook person who doesn't keep track of timeouts. This is basic.

Even so, Nevada's right. That's what AC's are for. If a coach doesn't have an AC, use the kid on the end of the bench.

JR,
First of all, once I got beyond my view, I am only the messenger. :) At the same time, there are a few other interesting aspects to this situation. Keep in mind that in this case -- and ALL cases, there are TWO coaches. I am typically the coach with at least one or two timeouts left. My trusty scorekeeper is always working directly with the official book when he is not the official book to confirm all timeouts. It is a very rare game, indeed, when I do not know EXACTLY how many timeouts I have left. But, that is another discussion.

Per the original post, BOTH coaches were informed of the timeout situation. Apparently, the home coach was OK when told he was out of timeouts. He likely would have heard that the other team had one timeout left, as well. If he had a problem with the accuracy of the book, this would have provided a great time to argue for an additional timeout, if he did, in fact, deserve it. Yet, he said NOTHING. Therefore, when that timeout was called, I am guessing that the home coach did not feel as though he was getting "screwed" ME THINKS he thought that the officials properly permitted his opponent to receive his/her fifth and final timeout.

In this situation, the "Official Book" SPOKE -- rather than just being written. Neither my rules interpreter nor I believe that a book CANNOT be changed. However, if the book was SPOKEN officially to indicate one thing, the book better be SPOKEN again to correct the error. This should mean, sounding the horn (TWO MINUTES elapsed in the post -- NO EXCUSE for not conveying this information to the game officials AND the coaches) to officially CHANGE the book.

My concern is that what actually may have happened here is that someone may have gotten into the ear of the 16 year old scorekeeper and convinced her to change the book -- quite probably "screwing" the visiting team.

This "convenient" HOME TEAM official book change CLEARLY was a MAjOR benefit to the HOME TEAM. If you are OK with that, that is fine. But, as you have stated we philosophically disagree that an on-the-fly "stealth" change is "fair" and within the rules. I -- eitther as an official, as the visiting coach, as the home coach or as a coach simply watching the game feel that such a change to the official scorebook should require notification that such a change has taken place -- keep in mind, the scorer kept his/her little "secret" (the change is timeouts remaining) for a FULL ONE HUNDRED TWENTY SECONDS!!! Failure to notify a change in the book in this case is a failure to make a change and we are going with what the scorer's documentation last indicated.

The ultimate "keeper of the information" is the SCORER NOT the COACH. So, if I have called two timeouts in a game -- and I KNOW I have called two timeouts -- BUT, the official book says I have called FIVE, then I have ZERO left. As wrong as this may be, the official book says I have none left -- and I am informed by the official/scorer that I have none left -- I have no timeouts left.

It does NOT MATTER that the coach has actually only called two timeouts. The book is what matters. So, it is NOT THE COACH who is ultimately responsible for counting timeouts, it is the official scorer.

If the official scorer documents one thing, communicates that information to the coaches and then changes the documenation, but fails to communicate said change to the coaches, well.....

Yes, but if you were told you were out and you knew you had one left, would you not at least ask them to verify?

I agree this is like 6 players on the court. We try to stop it every time, and are instructed to count and not start a throw-in until each team has 5, but it's still up to the coach to count them.

OK, Bob, a question. Since many an official on this forum thinks that coaches are pretty much ignorant about many things, this situation is not a stretch.

Let's say that a coach is not certain how many timeouts he has used. I know that this could never happen to an official since we never forget details like this, but this is a coach. How can the coach get the official information regarding timeouts he/she has left (I ROUTINELY here coaches ask this question during the course of the game)? Or is it impossible to get reliable information from a scorer?

Isn't this a reasonable request? Or is the number of timeouts used/remaining something that the official scorer can manipulate throughout the game. Any time a tight game is going down to the wire, this would be an accidental "gaffe" that the home scorer could communicate to the visiting team -- yeah, buddy, you have one timeout left :) when in reality the visiting team had none. :eek:

So, is a coach's request for the accurate number of timeouts he has left a reasonable one to ask of the official scorer? Isn't the accuracy of this information somewhat germaine to the game?

Could be, but the play was also called correctly by rule.

OK, let me ask you a question....and forget about home and visitors.....the scorebook is supposed to be neutral. And mistakes will made honestly.

You're the coach of a team in a state high school championship game. Your team has never been in a state championship game before, let alone won one. You're down by 1 point with 10 seconds to go. The opposing team has a spot throw-in under your basket after you called your last timeout. You're pressing naturally and you've also told your players to foul immediately if they can't steal the ball on the throw-in. The thrower is up to a 4-count, which you know by watching the official's arm, when the thrower asks for a timeout. The timeout is granted. You now hear the scorer tell the official that the opposing team didn't have any timeouts left. The official responds by telling the scorer that it's OK and it isn't a technical foul because your opponents weren't exactly sure how many TO's they had left. Soooooo, you tell me....are you, the coach who just spent hundreds of hours with your kids getting them ready for a state championship game, now gonna say "Gee, that's fair. I agree with that completely."?

Be honest.

Btw, if you need to call another timeout also, do you think that you should be able to now take another one too--because "fair's fair"? Or is that concept only good for one team at a time? And if you do call an extra timeout and get a "T" for it, are you just gonna nod your head and say "Gee, I agree with that call too. That's different"?

I quit doing even that a long time ago.

"Honey, It's For You, It's Your Assigner, And He Really Sounds Pissed" ...
 

What other rules do you not follow? Do you keep a list and hand the list to your coaches, and partner, before each game?

Team A has only one game left, and needs one more win, to make the state tournament. The scorekeeper informs you that Team A has used all five of their timeouts, but you choose not to inform the Team A Coach, in fact, you quit doing that a long time ago. Ten seconds left, Team A is up by one. Possession arrow gives Team B the next alternating possession. A1 is trapped in the corner of his frontcourt, with the official approaching the end of his five second count, and with A1 in danger of having a held ball called between himself, and B1, who already has one hand on the ball. Team A coach requests, and is granted a timeout, his sixth, which leads to Team B making both technical foul free throws, successfully inbounding the ball at the division line, and winning the game. After the game the losing coach explains to the local media that he didn't realize that he had used his last timeout because he was never informed by an official and he is one of the few coaches in the state that knows most of the rules and cites: NFHS 2-11-6: The scorer shall: record the time-out information charged to each team (who and when) and notify a team and its coach, through an official, whenever that team is granted its final allotted charged time-out.

Now, how do you explain that to your assigner when he calls you the next morning.

I wish I can recall who posted it, but an esteemed member once said, and I'm paraphrasing here, it's always really easy to explain problem situations when you follow the rules. I suggest that you take his words to heart, and even though you quit following this rule a long time ago, that you change your ways, and start following this rule starting in your next game.

Fixed it for ya'. :)

There's been a few times this year that I've had to remind the home/official book to put down the timeouts :eek::mad:

For the Varsity games, the person that does the home/official book keeps track of the timeouts, AP, & Running score (marking a progressive score in the margins of the scorebook).

Just wish that those that did JV & C-Squad books did the same thing.

I guess that surprises me, as I've never had an issue with this even in JV and C squad games. I don't even remember having a problem in middle school, AAU, or anything else.

I'm surprised that no one has corrected this statement yet. Requesting an excessive time-out is a TEAM technical foul per 10-1-7. It is not charged directly or indirectly to the head coach.

Is it a rule for the official to inform the coach? Yes.


Is this the same thing as the OP? I don't think so. Official fails to notify coach of no timeouts. An oversight. Oops.

How many coaches enter the game thinking: When I call my last timeout, the officials will tell me. I'd say not very many.

Official tells coach he has one, when in fact he has none. Potentially a major screwup.

I've mentioned this before, but basically those that do the JV & C-Squad books seem to have no formal training. The personnel doing the Sub-Varsity books have done it for at least a season normally, however the coaches never have taken the time to train them in their duties, or that they are supposed to be neutral while at the table.

I actually warned the visiting book during both the JV Girls' & C-Squad Boys' games that they could not cheer or make remarks at the table, or I would see that they be replaced.

During the Girls' Varsity game, the visitiing book was yelling at the officials about calls, but the scoreboard operator gave him the "if looks could kill" & thankfully he got the hint to be quiet.

Yes, the official book should be keeping track of the fouls, the score, timeouts, & AP, however everyone doing scorebook (both official & non-official) need to be properly trained so that both books should be keeping track of everything.

JR,
Good scenario. First of all, I am going to know how many timeouts I have and my opponents have in this situation. because I am going to go to the source -- the official scorer (with confirmation with my scorer). If there is a discrepancy, the official scorer's information is the one that matters (see my post in regards to indicating that even if I KNOW I have only called four timeouts, if the OFFICIAL SCORER says we have called five, that is the OFFICIAL answer). Therefore, there will not be uncertainty as I have gotten the information from the OFFICIAL SCORER.

Keep in mind, to make your situation close to the OP, my opposing coach was formally told he had ONE TIMEOUT remaining. I would be asking the question of the scorer the timeout situation for both teams. Therefore, I would know how many timeouts, if any, both of us have. If the count gets to four, I will know whether we are one second from a turnover or whether we are likely going to have to put a defensive stop together, again.

I brought up this situation at one of our association's meeting tonight. I specifically asked the question of the local interpreter from this association -- different from the other interpreter I mentioned earlier. Initially, he indicated that a technical foul had to be called by rule. The more I explained -- 16 year old scorer, no visitor scorer, etc. -- the more he became troubled by the situation. He indicated that he would ask for all timeout information throughout the game. In the event that the scorer did not indicate specifics of the timeouts, he indicated that this would be "problematic."

Nearly all officials I asked to give their opinion indicated they would not issue a technical foul since the official book indicated four timeouts had been used.

This is the issue, Jurassic. When is "official" official? I understand that a scorer can make an administrative change until the score has been verified. But, would you agree that this situation is at least somewhat troubling? Keeping track of five timeouts during a heated game can be a challenge for a coach. We are relying on the accuracy of the official scorer (with our scorer keeping a record for comparison as well). Unlike the situation that you proposed to me, in the OP, there was no dispute that the scorer through the official had passed along inaccurate information. in the OP. Unlike your situation, the coach clearly thought he had a timeout left because the OFFICIAL SOURCE of such information had CONFIRMED it.

While the OP did not give intimate details of the situation leading to the timeout, there is a possibility that the team was under little to no duress. In your situation, if my opposing coach did not call a timeout, it would have resulted in a turnover -- possibly. If the coach had been informed that he had no timeouts left, he would have no argument. Even if he had not been informed, I could live with the coach or team being responsible for asking for the official information.

But, in the OP, the coach had been given specific information that HE HAD ONE TIMEOUT remaining. This is what I am struggling with in this situation. If the coach had PRESUMED he had a timeout left, the coach would be wrong -- technical foul would have been well earned (Chris Weber would fit into this category). If the coach had relied on his own scorer, the coach would be wrong -- once again, a technical foul would have been earned. But, in this case, the coach went directly to the source -- actually, the information was provided from the source via the official came to him. There was NO intention to "cheat" the other team by taking an extra timeout. He was merely calling a timeout that he had been OFFICIALLY TOLD he had -- there was no dispute, there was no confusion.

The number of timeouts a team has remaining is one of the most important pieces of information a scorer is responsible for tracking accurately. I have a real problem with a scorer making such a MAJOR change without communicating this information to the officials and the coaches. Remember, in the OP, two minutes had elapsed. Certainly, enough time to communicate the change to the officials and coaches.

The scorer has, quite possibly, cost this team a chance to win a game because they make a change in their book AND INFORMED NO ONE.

I'm not questioning your experience, just saying it's vastly different where I have officiated; three metro areas in two different states. I have never had an issue, ever.

Very true different localities, different experiences.

It's interesting seeing the differences between schools even 2-4 hours apart.

At least we have no change of Varsity Scorebook personnel, & they've had proper training.

I've done what I can to train the personnel that do the Sub-varsity scorebooks, but they seem to be too involved in their own world.

Basically all I can do is just do my best to keep track of the score & fouls, while also keeping track of the shot clock & the AP.

I even told the home scorebook person one time that they'd have full responsibility of keeping track of the personal fouls (Did that the game after last for Boys' C-Squad), it did make a difference.

:rolleyes:

Oops ???
 

Texas Aggie's post does not sound like an oversight.

And Why Most Of Us Don't Do It ...
 

Which is why it's not in the rulebook, casebook, or mechanics manual.

I must confess, I just don't understand this -- and, yes, this could be another reason for a divide between coaches and officials.

Why is it that NO ONE wants to take a SIMPLE RESPONSIBILITY of notifying a coach OFFICIALLY about something as important as how many TIMEOUTS he/she has left????

Because that's the scorer's job, not the officials.

It's that simple, coach. We don't keep track of fouls either and that info is probably just as important to a coach..

1) As soon as the scorer told me that a team had just taken an excess timeout, that information would be "official". Whether there was a bookkeeping mistake made beforehand is irrelevant rules-wise. We have to go with the correct information. We don't get a choice in this situation.

2) Yup, it's troubling. But the fact that it's troubling is also completely irrelevant rules-wise.

I've kicked this one to death and I'm just repeating myself. Time for me to let it go (I hope).:)

Situation: Team A HC requests and is granted a TO. Scorer informs official that this is an excess TO. Official rules a T and awards Team B 2 FTs. A) Before the official puts the ball at the disposal of B1 for the division line throw-in; or B) About 2 minutes later (including several live and dead balls, etc.); the scorer buzzes the officials and says that he erred; the timeout that team A had taken was actually their 5th and Team B was actually the one out of time outs. What is the ruling?

That's fine, JR. BUT, the scorer IS a part of our team, is he/she not? I don't understand why the TEAM cannot take responsibility for this -- other than the fact that OFFICIALS KNOW that there are issues here and they are trying to disassociate themselves from it.

Based on the numerous responses from fellow officials, many appear to want to stay as far away from this as humanly possible -- even going to the point of not communicating that a coach has taken his/her final timeout. :(

I view game management as a very important part of my job. I want to make sure that the scorers' information agrees. I want to make sure that the book matches the board during the game. This does include making sure THROUGHOUT THE GAME that the running score, the number of individual fouls, the number of team fouls, the number of timeouts, the status of team DOG warnings, etc. are all in agreement. If a coach wants to know OFFICIALLY how many fouls a player has, I want the scorer to be able to accurately relay that information to the coach. If a coach wants to know OFFICIALLY how many fouls his team has in a particular half, I want the scorer to ba able to accurately relay that information to the coach. If a coach wants to know how many timeouts a particular team has (the coach's own team OR the other team), I expect the scorer to be able to relay this information accurately to the coach.

These items are ALL a part of game management. As a referee/official doing a game, this is still a part of our jobs. Would you agree that if a particular official consistently has "official book" problems that this particular official would be less likely to get the opportunity to work a state level game in the first place?

Please note: this is NOT in regard to the OP, but rather your opinion on our role in game managment.

a) correctable error. No different than the case plays where a 1-1 or 2-shot "bonus" is shot in error.

b) no longer correctable.

We've discussed this question before.
A) got us into a big discussion on the use of the correctable error rule and its possible application to this situation.
B) was pretty much agreed that it was too late to fix anything so live with it and file a report to the governing authority.

Agreed that the more the official knows about the game, the better the official is able to head off problems before they occur. IT's in the same vein as 6 players on the court -- the official should count before putting the ball in play, but if they don't, then the team gets penalized. And, of the things an official needs to know / remember / perform -- knowing TOs and team fouls are down on the list.

Bob,
For the most part, I agree with the six players on the court penalty. I say the most part only because I WOULD NEVER issue a technical foul in the case that was presented on this board several weeks back in which one official beckoned the player onto the floor, one of his partners put the ball into play, and his other partner called a technical foul on that team for having six players on the court (while the sub was running onto the court and before the replaced player was off the court) because play had been improperly resumed by one of the officials. In the general case of six players, a COACH sent a player onto the court (indirectly through the scorer's table or directly when coming out of a timeout). While a whipping with a wet noodle is due the officiating crew for allowing this to happen, this action was initiated by the COACH.

As officials, we should know the game situations to the extent that we can. If a team likely to want to request a timeout, it helps to have a sense that one team is gaining momentum, etc. While we cannot possibly know how many fouls a team has during a half, the number of individual fouls each player has, the number of timeouts a team has, a member of our team (the official scorer) certainly needs to have this information at his/her disposal throughout the game.

I must be in the minority here, but late in the game I absolutely want to know the timeout situation. Mainly because once a team uses its last 30-second timeout or last 60-second timeout, I know what they have left so I don't spend 10 seconds asking the coach what he wants, only to be told by him he only has 30-second timeouts left. I also make sure both books agree on the number of timeouts. If I've gone to that amount of trouble and the scorer and visiting book (on their own, without informing me or the teams) change the number of timeouts available, well, I'm not sure what I would do. Hasn't happened to me yet and I refuse to put myself in a corner on the Internet. :D

For me, it's no different from knowing when a team has 6 team fouls. Is it necessary information? No. I frequently will point at a shooter as a non-calling official and say "shooter" on a 5th or 6th team foul anyway (no harm getting a shooter even though it's not a bonus situation) but normally when it's 6 or 9, I like to be able to communicate that with my partners so we're all prepared for the bonus situation.

I might disagree on some of that.

And, while I agree that the scorer should have this information, there are no "correctable error" provisions if the wrong TO information is given.

In fact, wasn't there an interp that indicates that a T for excessive TO can be given well after the fact?

We agree on this, but mainly because I don't drop my hand until the player subbed for has left the court. Partner cannot put it in play (in my mind) with my hand up, so if he tries, I hit my whistle and stop him from doing so.

1) And most if not all officials agree with you imo and feel exactly the same way that you do also. Do you really think that we want screw-ups in our game? But sh!t happens!!!!! And if it does, we have to go by the rules that are given to us. It's that simple.

2) Nope, I'd disagree completely. I'd never blame an official for the scorer screwing up. Ever! And I say that knowing that in my area I get to pick officials to work at those levels. :) I judge officials on how they respond to book problems. And believe me, they are sureashell not rated highly by me if they do NOT use the rules available to them to correct the problems. The bottom line remains that we can't make up our own rules if there is a rule already in place that covers the situation.

Situation 11 of the 2007-08 Interps stated that the penalty for an excess TO is assessed when discovered.

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...s-archive.html

Heckuva memory, Bob....

In the OP, it was relayed that this was a simple communication mistake. One team was out of TOs, one had one left, unfortunately the scorer "flipped" them accidentally when communicating to the official. While regrettable, mistakes happen and the correct procedure is that when the excessive TO was granted and the scorer realized what had happened, a T was the appropriate call.

Coach's post took the OP to a different level. If you, as an official, believe the scorer changed what was in the book (not just miscommunicated, but got out his pencil and eraser and changed the book), then a quick investigation is in order relative to when the TOs were recorded, exactly what happened, etc. If that leads you to the point where you know the book was purposefully changed you (may) have other remedies available, up to and including flagrant technical fouls, to deal with the situation. And if in that discussion you realize that it wasn't an excessive TO, you don't have a technical foul.

What we're dealing with in the OP is miscommunication and the only remedy is enforcing the rules.

Also Identical Numbers And Illegal Numbers ...
 

2007-08 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 11: A1 requests and is granted an excessive time-out. The excessive time-out is discovered (a) immediately; (b) when A1 has the ball at his/her disposal for a throw-in following the time-out; (c) during a dead ball after three minutes have elapsed off the game clock. RULING: In (a), (b) and (c), assess a team technical foul to Team A for the excessive time-out. Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball for a division line throw-in. The penalty for an excessive time-out is assessed when discovered. (10-1-7 Penalty)

"That Was Your Last Timeout, Coach" ...
 

I hope that you mean that it's not the officials job to tell the coach how many time outs he has left, except for when the coach has none left.

NFHS 2-11-6: The scorer shall: record the time-out information charged to each team (who and when) and notify a team and its coach, through an official, whenever that team is granted its final allotted charged time-out.

I have that document and the NFHS really needs to update it to reflect the team control foul rule change from a few years back. :D