Block? Charge? No call?
 

Had this play in my game the other day......at half time my partner and I talked about the play and differed on opinions, so I thought I'd get a few additional opinions.

YouTube - BlockCharge1 2010_01_14_00_38_14.avi

PC

Not great mechanics by the crew on the double whistle. Notice the T halfway into his block call. :(
Either that or he's waving off a try that didn't go in.

Tweet. Offense.

i'd say the green dude had legal guarding position- offensive.

What did you end up going with? Did you talk about double whistles??

PC or nothing. I saw a player fall, but I did not see a lot of contact. Then again the angle was terrible.

Peace

Player Control Foul. Looks like the trail was actually waving off the basket -- likely calling a PC foul. Hard to tell what the lead had. But, since they must have disagreed -- otherwise we wouldn't be talking about it -- the lead must have had a block. The only reason to wave a shot off while still in flight would be for a PC foul. If the lead had a block, well, uh oh. :eek:

I can see a double whistle in this situation since the contact was just on the edge of the lane. Some officials pregame "I have the drive all the way to the basket from my side of the floor (similar to C taking it in 3 Man).

Defender had legal guarding position, contact by the ball handler. Tweet, going the other way!!!!

He's either getting ready to wave it off and go PC or pound his hips with a block signal. Not sure which.

I've got PC on this. Could see someone going no-call as the defender started backwards and there wasn't a ton of contact, and it appears the shooter may have contacted the defender "off-center" rather than straight on. Contact still appears to be in the torso, however...

Might add: Trail is signaling early when this definitely occurs in L's primary...

I don't see this being a no call...there is a lot of contact and both players hit the floor...either way there has to be a whistle on this play.

+1

Or the start of a made three........!

The angle is bad from the stands. I have a charge as does alot of others...BUT. Can't tell if the defender is bailing out early (flopping) and if the contact is square in the chest (charge) or contact is slight along the defenders right side, while he is bailing (no call).

But initial call is OFFENSE! <punch-point>

in my honest opinion, it looked like a block. Take a closer look, the player with the ball picked up the dribble and just at that moment you can see the defensive player takes a jump forward. He lost his previous guarding position and I don't think he was in his new guarding position long enough before contact. I would have called a block for sure, but I'd have had to be there for a better answer.

I got some a really good perspective on the whole block/charge thing from one of my partners last Fri. He is a guy who worked the state finals years ago, D1, and then just recently retired after a long NBA career. His position was that officials at all levels don't call nearly enough PC fouls because 1) there is a distorted consensus about what makes up a pc foul and 2) officials aren't sure what to call a lot of times and the default is to go with a block or no call if you aren't sure . It is sort of along the lines of why there aren't enough T's called, a lot of officials just default to ignoring unsportsmanlike conduct rather than dealing with it - once you accept that PC fouls (like techs) are just another foul and there doesn't need to be a lot of drama, it makes it much easier to call. I couldn't agree with this more and I know I myself am guilty of it at times. I'm trying to really focus on the fact that there doesn't need to be a huge crash with bodies on the floor in order to have a pc foul. If you have a player with LGP and there is contact that displaces that defender you have a pc foul - and leaning back, turning to absorb contact, those are not things that cause it to NOT be a pc foul.

How long does he have to be in the new position?

What would make it "long enough"? Remember no time/distance required when defending a player with the ball. Did he establish his position before the ball handler left the floor? Looks to me 100% yes.

I cannot see the video at work. But hilighted above is not proper. Finishing the dribble and being there long enough have nothing to do with the call.

Did B1 establish LGP? Did B1 get to the spot of the collision first? Did A1 go airborne? Did B1 move after A1 went airborne?

Those are things you should be looking at.

Can you please explain why picking up the dribble is relevant?

true, but
 

True,however, if the defender is leaning back and I don't believe the contact was enough to displace the defender had they not be leaning, then I've got a no call. This is what makes it a flop in my opinion. The players lean for a reason. The primary one being to get a PC called against the offense.

But leaning is allowed, and they're still entitled to the spot, so if he's leaning backwards and still gets displaced, it's still a foul.

Now, if he'd have fallen anyway due to his leaning, then there's likely no foul; whether it was a flop or just a poorly executed move to absorb the contact.

They also lean b/c some of them are scared of contact, but that doesn't mean they can't take a pc foul. The judgement as you said is whether or not the contact was enough to displace, but the lean on its own does not rule out the pc, that's all I am saying.

He really wasn't leaning *that* much.

My opinion:

It's a PC foul. The defender established LGP well before the shooter was airborne. Mitigating contact with a small lean is different than flopping. He didn't start to the floor before he was hit.

2-person, I'd want that as the lead. I'm refereeing the defense in my primary. Wish the video played for a few more seconds to see the officials handle the double whistle.

I've got PC. The defender is "at the spot" well before the shooter leaves the floor, and without the benefit of slow motion (which we don't get at all anyways), I can't hardly see any flopping going on.

My definition of a flopping is falling backwards in the absence of contact or far out of proportion with the force of contact. That move is T-worthy in many instances.

Incidental contact that happens to knock over a leaning, off-balance defender is still not a foul: nothing in the definition of foul mentions whether the defender ends up on the floor.

IMO, leaning back and making oneself off-balance actually widens the scope for incidental contact, since it becomes more difficult to put such a defender at a disadvantage.

The OP seems to me clearly a PC foul and not incidental contact.

Even though the player was leaning, LGP appears to have been established, contact appears to be torso to torso. Charge is apparent from this video.

Curious what the T had and why

I understand and agree
 

I agree by rule they are allowed to lean. However, if they lean and the contact is marginal, it's a flop and a no call. You have to ask yourself, what caused the displacement more? The lean or the contact. In the above video, I don't believe the contact was marginal. It was PC all the way. The defender would have been displaced even if he wasn't leaning.

A player falling over does not mean there is a lot of contact. I looked at the video again and the player's feet are in the same spot when they started. If he got "run over" he would not be in the same place. It looks to me that he leaned back and mostly missed the possibility for contact that it would take to get a foul (from me). But if there is going to be a call, it is only a PC foul. But I believe in this case a no-call is the better call if I had to choose.

Peace

We're mostly in alignment, but I'm saying whether the lean contributed to the fall isn't relevant. To me, if the lean would have caused him to fall without contact, then the contact is incidental. If the contact contributed to the fall, however, then it's a foul even if the contact might not have caused him to fall if he wasn't leaning. Leaning is legal, so he shouldn't be punished (by allowing another player to knock him down) for doing it.

Yes
 

But contact is legal too. This is a contact sport. The only contact we penalize is the contact that causes displacement or provides an advantage or disadvantage. If the player is leaning and the contact is marginal, even though it may have contributed to it, I've got a no call. Otherwise, if the offensive player barely touches the chest of the defender while the player is falling back, I would have to call PC. I'm not going to do that. I doubt you will either. Also, I don't believe the rule book really uses the term lean, but it does say that the player can move and brace for the impact. There are better ways to brace for an impact than to lean. However, leaning is moving so it is allowed. But they lean to draw the foul. That is why we can call ( I haven't done it yet) a T for flopping. It's a HTBT and a judgment call. I don't believe either one of our positions is wrong nor are we that far apart on this. My thing is by leaning the defender is already placing themselves in a disadvantageous position. They are putting themselves in a position to be displaced by the slightest of contact to draw a foul. It has to be more than marginal for me to call a PC. It's one of those things that you know it when you see it or at least we should, if we are refereing the defense.

player with the ball "time and distance are not a factor in establishing legal guarding position"

The first time I looked at this I had PC I watched it a couple more times with the same thought. Read this post looked again and I came away with......PC

Defender established LGP, I have a PC as well.

Had a D1 official talk at our association meeting the other night and went through a good number of block/charge college video clips and broke them down. The terminology that I really picked up on was "to or through", meaning did the offensive player go 'to' the defender or did he go 'through' the defender.

This particular video, the offensive player clearly goes through the defender. He also mentioned that if you have 2 players on the ground as a result from a drive to the basket, the crew better come out with something (block or charge). And if you have to come in with a late whistle, because no one else took it, so be it. And when in doubt, you give the offensive player the benefit of the doubt.

So it sounds like an emphasis at the college level. We have been emphasizing "having a call when both players go to the ground" in our area as well and is definitely a pre-game point of discussion.

Thanks guys. I love to read your opinions and break down a simple play that could cause some problems.

For the record Trail was waiving off the shot....he pauses when he realizes L has a whistle too. Lead drops and T goes PC.

Mind sharing any of the post-game discussion? What were the points brought up, in review who should have had the call, etc?

Which one are you? L or T?

I like this A LOT.

Interesting. This sounds like a good idea since this would fall under the "call the obvious" category.

I'm T (so pick him apart all you want....that's why I posted it was to get opinion and feedback) in this play.

I felt like he went through the defender and there was too much contact to pass on, so no call really wasn't an option.

My initial thought was that since it came out of my primary and on my side of the lane it was my call and was a bit surprised that my partner blew on this play, but after watching the video it was a secondary defender that slid over so it makes more sense to me now why he blew. We discussed it and I asked what he had before he dropped his arm and he said he was going with a block because he thought the kid had gotten there late.

I'd say he really wasn't refereeing the defense, then.

But not as "obvious" as one would think. I believe there is at least one veteran official and contributor on here that believe a 'no call' would be best on this play. And I doubt he's the only one with that philosophy.

Hence, why it is a good topic for pre-game, unless you are working with partners that you've worked with previously and know their philosophy.

Your arms went up. Did you complete the preliminary signal? If so, do you think that played a part in what your partner went with?

Did you guys discuss how to handle double whistles in your pregame?

yup my arms went up and started to waive off the shot when I realized we had a double, so I dropped them and looked at my partner who dropped his arm and nodded at me to take it. So I went PC.

At halftime we chatted about it and I asked him what he had and he said he had a block because he thought the player got there late. It made me question the play in my head more.

We did much better the second half with very few if any double whistles.

New guy says charge. And it seems reasonably clear cut. Does anyone think L should have closed in even more on this play for a better angle or moved deeper?

I have no problems with Lead's positon. I also have no problem with Trail calling this .... I just cant figure out why Trail would think this is a block...

Who was tthe game Watreford and Roland Hall?

It seems that the consensus is that this was a PC which is what you called in the end. So you did well there.
I would advise you to sharpen up your mechanics. When calling a foul we need to blow the whistle and put a fist in the air. That is exactly what your partner did on this play, but you skipped the fist and went straight to a two-handed wave off of the shot. You need to break that habit immediately.

Also get in the practice of only waving off a shot if it actually goes in and you aren't going to count it, otherwise there is no reason to do so.

So I would say that you did better on the judgment side, but that your partner did better with mechanics.

lol....nope South Summit

I think that NevadaRef said it most correctly.

The camera angle is different than the L or T aspect. The biggest scenario here is the simultaneous whistle and what do you do. This is answered by

#1. Primary Area of Responsibility.

The contact even though the offensive player was coming from the T's primary occurred 2 feet inside the key. In the 2 person coverage, this is the Leads primary area of responsibility. The lead could have been in a better angle to see between the players. The lead correctly initiated the proper mechanic by raising his fist to indicate foul. Whether he had a block or charge he was correct. Some of you wanted a call because a player or players are on the floor. Don't necessarily fall victim to making a call just because a player is on the boards. The trail gave an improper mechanic by waving the no shot. You have to stop the clock. The official reported in an earlier tag that the L relinquished the call the T. Why? This was the L's call and he bailed. Blow your whistle and get the guts to make the call.

#2. Referee the Defense

To help you make the judgement call, referee the defense. We know that the contact was initiated by the offense but that is not important in this case. If you ask use the principle of refereeing the defense if will become easier to make the block/charge call or blarge call. Did the defender establish a legal guarding position. If you answer yes, then the only call you could have is a charge. The defender in this case took it in the shoulder and not the torso and he did a flop in the camera angle but in the L's angle this wouldn't be evident. If the L determined that the defense had established a legal guarding position then only a charge could be called. If a legal guarding position was not established then the contact would be a block if the basket was missed and you felt that the defense had put the shooter at a disadvantage.

So what?


It couldn't be a block if the basket was made?

I believe it was because the T immediately waved off the try. That tells anyone in the gym who knows anything about basketball that he has a PC foul. So unless the Lead wants to create a blarge, the best thing to do is to simply drop his fist and let his quick-signaling partner take it.

Given the circumstances, I think that the Lead did the best thing that he could, which was yield to his partner no matter what his own decision would have been.

I also must applaud Clark Kent for posting video of himself. It's not easy to open yourself up for critique. I sincerely hope that the feedback which he obtained in this thread will serve him well in the future.

JAR,
Don't be so harsh on bbeval.

I believe that his first comment about the torso was written as a strong indicator of a charge/PC, but not that he is saying that this wasn't a PC or that off-center contact could not be a charge. He was merely citing a rule of thumb, which official apply on the court to help determine if contact warrants a charge.

Secondly, I believe that his other comment is to be taken in the spirit of advantage/disadvantage. Some posters wrote that due to the defender leaning back and perhaps bailing out a little early that they would consider not calling a foul on this play at all. That decision is far more acceptable if the try is successful for the official can claim that the contact did not put either player at a disadvantage. FWIW I think that is what bbeval was getting at.

lol...yep it is worth the learning experience! I love the insight I get. Thanks

Thanks for the back up Nevada. You got the intent of what I was writing/thinking. And yes, regardless of the whether the basket is made or not is immaterial to calling the block.

Amen to this on MANY levels. I get mad at officials that state that a defender "bailed out" when he would have gotten mowed through anyway and then they call a block because of it. In pregames make sure outside guys have SLOW whistles because that lead is going to come out with a signal instinctively!

Yup. The one blocking foul I think is missed a lot is when the defender gets another step up after the shooter goes airborne. But refereeing the defense gets that one pretty well.

My default on a crash is a PC foul until proven otherwise (I don't really mean this to sound this strong, but it's how it's coming out of my keyboard). The ball-handler invariably initiates the contact and many times the defender has established LGP. Just cause he's moving or shielding himself or whatever means nothing to me.