Question re: Jurisdiction
 

The horn sounds to end the game with team A beating team B 77-76. As you start to run off the floor, you see A22 remove his shirt.

Is it a technical foul by rule?

Would you make this call if it was a technical foul by rule?

I would use common sense in this case. The game is over in the minds of everyone other than officials. Technically, it's not over until the officials leave the visual confines of the court, thus approving the score.

The rule states that Jersey/Pants may not be removed within visual confines of playing. Since the game had finished there will be no more "playing" to follow. So this would be allowed if I was in those shoes.

Hopefully I'm thinking straight on this one! I would like to see that called though to see everyones reaction :D

Hold on CDur...you are trying to bend the rule a little...

10-3-3h / 10-4-1h says:
Removing the jersey and/or pants/skirt within the visual confines of the playing area.

haha I've been caught! I read it from the back of the rule book where is states the differences between NFHS and NCAA. Guess they left out "area" I felt like that was correct though.

Yup.

My goal after a game is to get out of there quick so I don't see it. Even if I saw it, no way I'm calling a T on this - even I'm not willing to pick that fight (with the coach or the assignor). Guess the only exception would be if I thought it was done to taunt the losing team or the crowd.

Yes it is a technical foul by rule. No I would not call it....I don't believe I would get backing from my association for that call and would likely be out of the officiating business.

He did what???

Man, how did we miss that?:p

... really, we thought those were cheerleaders' sweaters hanging from the rim on our way out! :eek:

I think I'm too cowardly to make that call.

Are you beating someone to the punch? :D

it pains me to do this, but couldn't resist

where does it say always? :D

Thought I might as well. :D

I'm thinking this is a POI situation.

The point of interuption was me going to the locker room. :)

You do realize, don't you, that team B might make only one of their free throws. Do I have to say any more? ;)

That would be my answer....heck I'm a newbie, I miss things all the time.

That's funny. :) I'm glad that everyone knows what my position is.

Since JR started this thread, Rulz rules. ;)

2005-06 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations

SITUATION 3: Team A is leading 62-60 when the horn sounds to end the game. A1 then removes his/her jersey near the team bench (a) before the officials leave the visual confines of the playing area; or (b) after the officials leave the visual confines of the playing area. RULING: In (a), A1 is assessed a technical foul. Team B is awarded two free throws; if both are successful, overtime will be played. In (b), since the officials' jurisdiction has ended, no penalty is assessed. (3-4-15; 2-2-4; 10-4-1h)

1. I thought he was a player from the previous game?

2. I was looking the other way?

3. Although I saw him, I thought he was outside the visual confines of the playing area?

4. Yes, Nevada, I'm more interested in advancing my career and making the big bucks, than I am in standing firm on principle. Self-interest over righteousness every time!!

This situation is null and void in MA, right?

I didn't see it because I was too busy taking my shirt off. That'll show 'em! :eek:

That "intent and purpose of the rules" thing is troublesome to me on this one.
Somebody tell me, in a nutshell, what the intent and purpose of this rule is.

Knowing your position means you're predictable. :D

I'm in the locker room.

Sure, no problem. Here it is straight from the NFHS.

COMMENTS ON THE 2005-06 RULES REVISIONS

JERSEYS/PANTS/SKIRTS PROHIBITED FROM BEING REMOVED (3-4-15, 10-3-7h, 10-4-1h): A team member is prohibited from removing his/her jersey and/or pants/skirt within the confines of the playing area. The penalty is a technical foul. The former uniform rule didn't require team members to actually wear the team uniform. This addition also addresses a growing behavioral concern of players removing their jerseys to demonstrate frustration or anger and as a means of attracting individual attention. The rule is intended to be applied in all situations - even when a player must change uniforms due to blood or other unusual circumstances. It is not unreasonable to expect team members to go to their locker rooms to change their jerseys.

As you can plainly see the situation posed is exactly that of the intent of rule-writers. Notwithstanding the comments of those who would look the other way because they think that they know better than those who sit on the committee or believe that improper enforcement will advance their officiating careers. :rolleyes:

I had, of course, seen this before, but not lately. I thought this is what the rule was all about. Count me as one who thinks he knows better than the committee if they think this is a good rule when broadly applied to every situation. This is even more dangerous because it has no definite end. Around here it is not uncommon for officials not to leave the court at all when another game is to follow.

Well then okay, do as you believe best. My conscience will be clear that I have done all that I could to steer you down the proper path.

I have advised you of the rule. I have given you the NFHS description of its intent and purpose from when it was introduced. I have even given you a specific case play ruling for the given situation, which explicitly instructs the official what to call.

If you elect to handle this differently, then that's totally up to you.

The definite end is when the officials leave the visual confines. That's in the rules too. ;)

This is not a fair criticism because the NFHS rules are written to cover just single games, not multiple games in succession.

The local governing authority for those games would have to make a ruling as to how to handle your scenario. Something such as when the clock starts for the pre-game warm-up for the next contest or when the new teams take the floor, etc.

I'm fairly sure the Fed knows that on most nights two games are being played in the same gym back-to-back (JV/V, Fresh/Soph, etc.).


Side bar:
So if a coach places one foot outside the coaching box, you going to call a technical foul, correct?

You will note I never said how I would handle it. I merely said I consider it a big problem that a rule with potentially huge consequences is so broadly worded.


And when the officials might leave such confines is definitely not definite.

This is exactly why it is a fair criticism, because I can count on the fingers of one hand how many times I have called a single game, rather than multiple games, which are most often in succession.


Can you give an example of a local governing authority addressing a single rule which is as obscure as this one?

+1

This is apples v oranges.

What is the difference when a player removes jersey in OP and a player/coach acting unsporting after the final horn?

You haven't left the visual confines in either situation. How will you handle it?

Acting unsporting is one thing.

Removing the jersey is another.

A player removing his jersey can conceivably be done in an unsporting manner, but can also be conceivably done to let the player's little brother wear it.

Yet in Nevada each should be punished with a technical foul.

Yep, but the assumption is either that different officials are coming out for the next contest or that the crew will leave the visual confines of the playing area following the first game and then return for the second.


And if you exited and then returned as noted above this wouldn't be an issue. The NFHS assumption is that the official actually do leave the gym when the game finishes. If they don't, then they aren't following the proper protocol and are causing the difficulty, not the NFHS rule.

Fixed it for ya. :p

And JR says "Rulz rules..just about all of the time.";)

Jmo but I think that you can't make a blanket statement that covers every single circumstance, event, nuance, etc. of what we run into while officiating during our individual career. I realize that the FED tried to take the judgment out of this particular call but I also think that they didn't allow for all situations when they did so. And I think that the majority of officials realize that. It might be analgous to the situation in the past when throwing an elbow without contact was an automatic "T". Officials from sea to shining sea refused to call it because they thought the punishment didn't fit the crime. And the penalty was changed to a violation because of that.

Again this is jmo but I think that this is one example of where the strictest application of a rule doesn't really meet the purpose and intent of the rule. I can't think of one reason why this particular act could ever be called unsporting as long as no taunting was involved with it, or could ever affect the game in any way.

Note that the situation in the OP actually came up in a varsity boys game Tuesday night in one of the high school leagues that we cover. Our association's rules interpreter asked me for my thoughts on it. Which is why I asked for your thoughts on it. You can bet it will be discussed at our next general meeting.

I welcome further feedback and opinions on this one.

I do not know what you are talking about? ;)

Peace

But Not My Pants ...
 

If the coaches have been real nasty to me, I'll take my striped jersey off before I leave the confines of the playing court. That will really show them that they pissed me off.

http://thm-a01.yimg.com/nimage/a99fceca06b37560

Sho, you right. I understood where the OP and everyone else is coming from on both sides of the fence. The point I was attempting to make is. We know by rule this should be punished. Yet, we want to pick and choose what rules and when we want to inforced them.

I know don't be a plumber either. Once again I get it. Personally, would I call this. I can't honestly say. I know when the final horn sounds and I'm not the Referee I am high tailing out of there especially a game that close.

What do you do differently if you're the R?

Make eye contact with the official scorer and confirm that everything is okay with the book before leaving. You know that little responsibility that the R has at the end of each half of play to verify the score. :eek:

Since that is the case, I have to ask. The official charged a T, right? Otherwise, why would your association interpreter or you being hearing about this? I'm thinking that someone was unhappy because an official called a T after the final horn and called it in.

Why do you have to make eye contact with the scorer? Isn't the score approved when you run off the court? ;)

Peace

1. That doesn't take long enough to slow me down.
2. When you're the U, do you bail on your R?

Nope, no technical foul was assessed. The official involved asked our interpreter whether he thought that one should have been given under those circumstances. The rules interpreter told him that he wouldn't recommend it if no unsporting behavior or taunting was involved. Fwiw I agreed.

We ask our people to bring questions like this to our attention. The biggest benefit is that we can discuss it at our next meeting, come to a consensus and ask all of our officials to try and call it uniformly if it ever comes up again. We've done this with other things like the "displaced shoe/untied shoelace" situation that came up in another thread.

I give the table a glance to see if their are any issues and hoping nothing is in my line of sight.

JR,

This scenerio is the very type, that should to be discussed with official(s), at all experience levels.

Most games there's a timeout near the end of the game where I can verify the score, etc. Then on the way off, I can (while moving) just look towards the table with a thumb up and get a quick signal. It doesn't slow me down a bit.

Well, most people can't.

But Nevada sure can. :rolleyes:

Taking it further
 

OP but adding this is for the State Championship. Fans have rushed the court and one of the officials was not able to get out as fast as the rest of the crew. One of the players removes jersey and throws it into the air in celebration or disgust.

Are people really saying that this is a T they would call? :rolleyes:

Hey where did that can of worms come from? I heard something hit a fan. :eek:

So there is never a situation where you wouldn't call a T on a player for removing his/her jersey while you were still in the confines of the playing court?

Of course, because that's the way the rule is written and that's the way it should be called, by golly.

It's also a T for every assistant coach who ever stands up and yells out a play or a defense and then sits back down.

See, there are no shades in basketball officiating...no judgment is ever involved. It's all black and white and written right there for all to see. To not follow every single letter of the rules is to be less of an official...:rolleyes:

You must have attended Nevada's camp last summer...

Nevada Camp: Black and White With Stripes All Over - Summer 2010 Registrations now being accepted

No one would ever even THINK of blaming you, Nevada! Why is your conscience even an issue....

Ah, geez, I said I wasn't going to flame anyone, and it's only the 14th of Jan and you've already got my hair curling out like my finger's in an electrical socket...

But when the local governing authority hasn't yet made a ruling...

We get to use our best judgment. Since this rule is aimed at sportsmanship and expressions of disgust or hostility, I think it's perfectly reasonable, and not even remotely pussilanimous to judge that the kid is just in a hurry to get to his job, or is simply trying to avoid the locker room problems, or doesn't know that there's a problem, and is just getting on with his life. None of those situations have anything to do with sportsmanship, and the game is over, and everyone is moving on with their lives. Why throw the bus into reverse, strip the gears, run over a couple or twenty fans, and ruin the entire evening for everyone, if the so-called problem (unsportsmanlike behavior) doesn't even exist?

I just could not stop laughing after these two posts. :D

Peace

"Bingo"
-Cal Naughton, Jr.

Do you think Ricky is passing me in my subconscious?

If you ain't first, you're last.

Shutup. you little potlicker! I'll come over there and shove you in the microwave.

Old man, I'm gonna come at you like a spider monkey!

Very well put. In Nevada's defense, (can't believe I said that) the main problem is still the wording of the rule. The posted interp is virtually identical to the OP.

It is written black and white.

He removes his jersey. A technical foul is awarded.

I personally am not gonna say, "I didn't see it." etc. I'm just gonna say, "I'm not calling that because it doesn't make sense." If that gets me in trouble, I'll deal with it.

On the other hand, if an official does make this call, when everyone involved learn the rule, which I feel safe in saying most of them don't know, I don't see how they could put much blame on that official for making the call.
(but they would anyway)

I am not going to be on the court to see it. So I will say that with confidence and stand by those words. ;)

Peace

Thanks Jurassic for jinxing me. :mad:

I'm trail tableside. Lead calls team control foul on Red12. As I get ready to head downcourt to be new Lead table gets my attention and informs me Red12 has 5 fouls. I start my procedure: signal "5" to partners, inform coach (sub is already up and headed towards table with warm-up top on), tell table to start countdown, turn to inform player (he is already on the bench). When I turn back to wave in sub there is a young man standing there with red shorts and a white tank top on. :eek: Before I can say a word he steps on the court. Crowd starts laughing. He had pulled his jersey off with his warm-up top and didn't realize it.

I, of course, did not T him up. Had him get his warm-up top off the floor and get his jersey out from it.

LOL.....kinda hard to blow a whistle when you're laughing, ain't it? :D