Newer Posters: You make the call!
 

Inspired by Padgett's thread, here's a good question... it didn't happen last night but some of it did and I'm just adding to the situation.

Let the newer officials/posters (officiating basketball <= 3 years) give it a crack first....

Team A requests and is granted a 30-second time-out. Team A will have the ball OOB for a designated throw-in. A9 reports to the table after the warning horn. A9 is not permitted to enter the game at that point, but stays at the table.

Following the time-out, the official hands the ball to A4 (the thrower). With A4 still holding the ball, B2 immediately commits a DOG by violating the throw-in plane. It's B's second violation for violating the throw-in plane. A technical foul is charged to Team B.

Team A's head coach wants the free throws to be shot by the following:
A9 (as stated, currently checked-in at the bench)
A8 (who is on the bench)
A7 (who is on the bench)
A3 (player)
A2 (player)
A10 (who is on the bench)
A15 (who was heading to the table when the DOG was called, but hadn't checked-in at the time)

Who is eligible to shoot the free throws and why?

Who isn't eligible to shoot the free throws and why?

Who counts as newer? Fewer than 500 posts? 250? 100? 50?

I would call you newer, but it isn't my thread.

Clear up A4. You have him as 2 different people, the thrower and another sub heading to check in.

Works for me... give it a spin fiasco.

Done.

Nice catch, PIAA... sorry about that!

Everyone is eligible. For both free throws.

Any player replaced for a free throw shooter cannot check back in until after the ball has become live following the second free throw or ensuing throw-in.

I amended....but I'm not sure it's quite right still....

Basically, if A9 replaces A2 for the first free throw, A2 can come back in for the second free throw, and replace A9 again. But after that free throw, A9 can't come back in until after the ball has become live after the throw in and there is an opportunity to substitute.

Still not right. I'll give you a hint, it has nothing to do with when the ball becomes live.

Before the clock has started.....

Which would mean A2 would not be eligible to shoot the second free throw...correct?

Without checking above answers and not using rule book:
Anyone on floor. Reason: ball is live.

OK - now I will look at rule and case book.
New answer. Anyone, Plane violation causes ball to go dead. 9-2-10.
A can substitute.

By rule (went and looked it up, it's 8-3), the coach can designate anyone to shoot one or both of the free throws, even an eligible substitute.

Yup yup. A9, however, could be subbed for by A10 to shoot the 2nd shot. A9 then joins A2 as ineligible to come in until the clock has run.

Eligible: A4, A3, & A2 as they are currently active players.

Ineligible: A9, A8, A7, A10, & A15 as they are still bench personnel.

However where's A1, A5, A6, A11, A12, A12, A13 & A14?

Here we go. :rolleyes: They got ejected for smacking the guy working the table! Now, there you go.

+ 5 :D

It's true, it's true... however, it's not part of this situation... I'm posting their situation later.

LOL, thanks tomegun!

Read rule 8-3 and try again.
Or, if you don't want to or can't do that, read post #12 and try again.

Ok, so the FT Shooter can be whoever the coach or captain designates.

There are restrictions, can you tell me what they are?

Nice!!!!

I thought somehow it was all mentioned in there between Fiasco and Snaq's comments, etc. but maybe not. Just to try to clear this up in my studious noggin sooner than later, I'll drop my 2 cents in the bucket: Anyone on the team (OK, anyone who is legally entered in the book, lest there be another T) can shoot either of the FTs. BUT if anyone is subbed for, that unskilled FT shootin' sonofagun must sit for at least one tick of the game clock before being allowed any kind of re-entry. Clock operators may never shoot FTs, for techs or otherwise. Even if this is wrong in some way, thanks for the entertainment, TJ.

Well as I'm reading & understanding 8-3 an eligible substitute, a currently active player, or designated starter.

So if a player started the game on the court then they can shoot the FTs, correct?

Or is this just limited to the current active players or those waiting at the table before the T happened?

Designated starters is really only an issue at the beginning of the game, before anyone becomes an active player.

Current players is self-explanatory.

The key to the final group is the word "eligible," this should help you figure out what the restrictions are.

What if.....
 

A15 on his way to the table stopped to tie his shoes, would you pause the game and allow him to do that before you waived him in to shoot free throws.....

oops, sorry, wrong thread......

If I am reading & understanding the wording of the case play for 8-3 (as stated below) correctly, any player can come in to shoot the FTs as long as they have not fouled out or been DQ'd. However they cannot be subbed for until the clock has properly started. (The case play lists a start of game sitch, not a middle of game sitch)

8.3 SITUATION: A technical foul is issued prior to the start of the game & the game begins with free throws. Non-starter, A6, is brought in to the game to attempt the free throws & replaces starter A5.

RULING: Legal substitute. The ball becomes live to start the game when placed at A6’s disposal. A6 & A5 are subject to proper substitution rules. A5 may not re-enter until the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been properly started. (3-2-2a; 3-3-4)

Hint or leading you in the wrong direction?
 

This situation happened following a time-out. The ball became live; however, the clock never started.

Does this matter?

Something to think about...

Any player can be "subbed for" at any time. However, a player who has already been "subbed for" cannot re-enter the game until after time the clock has started.

A6 could sub in for A5 to shoot the first FT. Now A5 must wait until the clock has started to re-enter.

Then A7 could sub for A6 to shoot the second FT. Now A5 and A6 must wait for the clock to start to re-enter.

Then A8 could sub for A7 after the second FT. Now A5, A6, and A7 must wait for the clock to start before re-entering.

Okay, I've dragged this on long enough. You're very close. I'm going to change the OP slightly.
First half, shooting foul called on B1, putting A1 at the line for two shots. It's B1's third, so coach sends a sub to the table. After the first shot, B6 comes in for B1. After B1 gets to the bench, A1 turns and taunts him. Official calls a T.

A) Coach wants to sub B1 back in to shoot the free throws for the T, since he's the best shooter. He then wants to take him out before the throw-in in order to prevent the fourth foul. Is this allowed?

B) Coach wants to put B7 in to shoot the free throws for the T, since he's the best shooter. He then wants to take him out before the throw-in because he's not really that great a player other than shooting free throws. Is this allowed?

Did the subs report to the scorer before the warning horn?

Also was the time-out between FT attempts?

Re-read the OP.

A) Not allowed. B1 cannot entered until the next opportunity to sub after the clock has legally ran.

B) Legal as long as he isn't replaced by B1 or whomever B7 came in for.

My question is this. Say a sub reports after the warning horn during a time-out AND he is not a player that was subbed for since the clock was stopped prior to the time-out. Let's say he hasn't even been in the game yet.

The sub is not allowed to enter. The ball is handed to the thrower and before the ball is inbounded a foul is called on B1.

Can the sub at the table enter at this time? I say yes. I think that the clock running only applies to someone who is subbed for and wishes to re-enter.

Am I correct?

In the spirit of what's going on here, have tried to find citations in either rules or case book but haven't been successful. But seems I remember this discussion coming up before, at least in part.

A) So I don't have a citation, but I'm gonna say since B1 was subbed for in this sequence, he is not an eligible sub (until a tick comes off the clock), so, no, this isn't allowed.

B) Yes, if B7 was simply on the bench (or otherwise eligible), he can shoot the Tech FTs and be subbed for. Rules say you have to sit for at least a tick, not necessarily play for a tick.

As long as no one is DQ'd, anyone listed above can shoot the FTs, however if coming off the bench the person they sub for will not be allowed to become active until after the clock has been properly started.

A9 could go in to shoot the 1st FT by replacing A2, A15 could shoot the 2nd FT by replacing A4. However A2 & A4 are unable to come back in until after the clock properly started.

Yep

Yes, you are correct. The rule is that player must wait until the next opportunity to sub; that opportunity comes, in this case, with the foul.

Here's one from my game last night.

A6 reports to the table during play. The next opportunity for her to come in happens to be a shooting foul. The coach requests a timeout as the official is reporting the foul.

When can this sub enter?

What does the wording "eligible" substitute mean?

A33 has been DQ'd because he has 5 fouls... is A33 an eligible substitute?

Upon breaking from the TO. Just as if A7 was being sent in for A5 who had just fouled out on a given play — A6 (supposed to sub for, say, A4) would also enter at that time.

Yep, and I kicked it; passively anyway. As we were administering the shots, I looked up and saw her at the table again. No big deal, as she came in after the first shot anyway, but it made me think anyway.

Best. Post. Ever.

(excluding anything Padget has written, sorry!)

I'm going to let this thread go until late tonight then I'll post the answer.

I've got to admit folks... this situation tripped me up a little and orginally I had the incorrect answer.

But, the great thing about being wrong is I learned something today!

A player who has not been DQ'd or is otherwise restricted by the substitution requirements (when replaced, cannot re-enter until clock starts).

Really showing my rookie spots, so a player that subs in does not have to play a tick, but one who is subbed out does have to sit a tick?

This is correct.

Re: Hint or leading you in the wrong direction
 

Well, I was doing both. It matters that the ball became live and then dead but it doesn't matter for this situation that the clock never started.

Every person that Team A's coach wants to shoot the free throw can.


Side note: As I said, this situation tripped me up. For some DA reason, I came up with the idea that following a time-out a tick must come off before subs can enter. Obviously, I was able to come up with a situation or two that proved this wrong and brought me to my senses...with the help of Illini_Ref. Anyways, I deserve a good slap on the back of the head for being a silly monkey for a couple hours today.

Now lets change the situation around a little....

Team A requests and is granted a 30-second time-out. Team A will have the ball OOB for a designated throw-in. A9 reports to the table after the warning horn. A9 is not permitted to enter the game at that point, but stays at the table.

Following the time-out and before the official hands the ball to A4 (the thrower) B4 is charged with a technical foul for jaw-jacking.

Team A's head coach wants the free throws to be shot by the following:
A9 (as stated, currently checked-in at the bench)
A8 (who is on the bench)
A7 (who is on the bench)
A3 (player)
A2 (player)
A10 (who is on the bench)
A15 (who was heading to the table when the DOG was called, but hadn't checked-in at the time)

Is this situation any different than the first situation?

If so, who is eligible to shoot the free throws and why? Who isn't eligible to shoot the free throws and why?

Yawn.....

Then quit reading this thread and posting. :rolleyes:

No.

Well you keep adding "hints" and suggesting you're going to post some answer that's going to knock our socks off or something and then you go and add a whole other sitch into the mix. Why don't you just jump to what your point is?

I posted the answer to the first situation... or were you to busy yawning to read that?

I never once suggested I was going to post an answer that was "going to knock your socks off".

The only point I'm making is I'm just trying to generate some discussion... if you don't want to participate, then don't. There were several posters, including you, that didn't come up with the correct answer. Maybe instead of yawning you should try to learn something. :rolleyes:

I did give the correct answer*, or were you too busy smacking yourself on the back of the head to notice?





*In regards to your main question, who is eligible to attempt the FTs.


Now, the real question is, was this a hint, or am I leading you in the wrong direction?

Hmmmm????


??????

Really? Because the "why"/explaination portion, as Snaq stated, is incorrect.

I wish I went to school where you did. :)

You know what.... not even worth it... Bob/Mick/Brad, kindly lock the thread up please. It's clear my efforts to generate discussion so that someone might learn something have failed... no need to continue.

Actually I did learn something.

But Snaq helped me out with that...

Good, I'm glad you did.

You guys going to provide the popcorn, too, or just the entertainment? :D

Nah, I'm not one who gets into pissing contests over nothing.

As I said, I tried to generate some situations and discussion for the newer folk and failed. No big deal, maybe someone got something out of it or maybe in the deep dark future when this thread is long gone and becomes part of the archives it will help someone.

FTR, I'm 335-0 in pissing contests. I attribute it to my....well....this is a family board. :eek:

I don't see how you failed. We had several new folks learn something from this thread. That's a success, IMO.

:D Dang it... well, I tried..sort of...

If you ask me your record, I think I'd have to say you are 334.5 - 0.5. ;)

No, no, no you don't get to re-write history....your last effort shows up as a forfeit, remember?

Oooh, a pissing contest over a pissing contest. I think I get double points for this one. :p

No, no... I get the double points for the double standard. ;) Ha Ha..

Down goes Frazier.....