What's your call?

rwest

A1 on the endline for a throwin (not an AP throwin). B1 jumps and reaches across the boundary line. Before I had a chance to blow my whistle for the violation he touches the ball on the out of bounds side of the boundary. The ball had left A1's hand but had not crossed the boundary line when contact was made.

tjones1

Was this after a bucket?
If the player reached through, then touched the ball - delay or whack if second delay. If the player reached through and touched the ball - whack!

10-3-10
Reach through the throw-in boundary-line plane and touch or dislodge the ball as in 9-2 Penalty 3.

9-2 Penalty 3
If an opponent(s) for the thrower reaches through the throw-in boundary-line place and touches or dislodges the ball while in possession of the thrower or being passed to a teammate outside the boundary line (as in 7-5-7), a technical foul shall be charged to the offender. No warning for delay required.

fiasco

Depends. Was it a throw in after a made basket?

Rufus

Well, 9.2.10 states:

The opponent(s) of the thrower shall not have any part of his/her person through the inbounds side of the throw-in boundary-line plane until the ball has been released on a throw-in pass.

Then, under penalities:

3. If an opponent(s) of the thrower reaches through the throw-in boundary-line plane and touches or dislodges the ball while in possession of the thrower or being passed to a teammate outside the boundary line (as in 7.5.7), a technical foul shall be charged to the offender. No warning for delay required.

7.5.7 is a pass out of bounds from one player to another after a made basket which doesn't apply in your scenario in that your player is trying to inbound the ball.

Based on all of the above I believe you got no call since the ball's already been released before the contact is made.

fiasco

rwest wrote
A1 on the endline for a throwin (not an AP throwin). B1 jumps and reaches across the boundary line. Before I had a chance to blow my whistle for the violation he touches the ball on the out of bounds side of the boundary. The ball had left A1's hand but had not crossed the boundary line when contact was made.

You need to be a little more specific in order to get an accurate answer.

1. What type of throw-in was this?

2. Did the defender reach across the line BEFORE or AFTER the ball was released?

rwest

fiasco wrote
You need to be a little more specific in order to get an accurate answer.

1. What type of throw-in was this?

2. Did the defender reach across the line BEFORE or AFTER the ball was released?

1.) This was not after a made basket. Just your garden variety throwin for causing the ball to go out-of-bounds.

2.) The defender reached across the boundary plane prior to the release of the ball.

fiasco

rwest wrote
1.) This was not after a made basket. Just your garden variety throwin for causing the ball to go out-of-bounds.

2.) The defender reached across the boundary plane prior to the release of the ball.

Then, like tjones said, you have a delay-of-game warning, unless this was the second offense.

If the defender had waited until the ball had been released, then reached over and touched the ball, you would have nothing.

Rufus

rwest wrote
2.) The defender reached across the boundary plane prior to the release of the ball.

I think that's your answer. Violation of the throw-in plane. Since the violation occurs before the touching of the ball, no technical and issue a delay of game warning.

Upward ref

fiasco wrote
Then, like tjones said, you have a delay-of-game warning, unless this was the second offense.

If the defender had waited until the ball had been released, then reached over and touched the ball, you would have nothing.

After the release, whether the ball is on the oob side or inbounds side ,no violation right?
Same for throw-in with end line priveleges ?

fiasco

Upward ref wrote
After the release, whether the ball is on the oob side or inbounds side ,no violation right?
Same for throw-in with end line priveleges ?

On any kind of throw in, there is no violation for a reach-over or touch after the ball is released.

UNLESS

It's an endline throw in after a made basket, and the thrower is passing the ball to a teammate who is also out of bounds. This is an automatic T. No warning required.

Adam

Rufus wrote
I think that's your answer. Violation of the throw-in plane. Since the violation occurs before the touching of the ball, no technical and issue a delay of game warning.

Right answer, wrong reasoning.
There's no technical foul because the ball was released before the defense touched it.
If, however, the defender reaches across and you cannot blow your whistle in time to prevent him from hitting the ball as its held by the thrower, it is a T even the first time. There's a case play (dang I hate leaving my book at work.)

fiasco

Snaqwells wrote
Right answer, wrong reasoning.

Huh?

How is this:

Since the violation occurs before the touching of the ball, no technical and issue a delay of game warning.

Different reasoning than this:

There's no technical foul because the ball was released before the defense touched it.

Adam

fiasco wrote
On any kind of throw in, there is no violation for a reach-over or touch after the ball is released.

UNLESS

It's an endline throw in after a made basket, and the thrower is passing the ball to a teammate who is also out of bounds. This is an automatic T. No warning required.

Basically, if the ball has been released on a throw-in pass, the restrictions are no longer in place. If it has not (and this includes being passed between OOB teammates during an end line throwin), then all restrictions remain in place for the defense.

Mark Padgett

fiasco wrote
Then, like tjones said, you have a delay-of-game warning, unless this was the second offense.

OK - let's get ultra-technical (no pun intended). It's still a DOG warning, except the second one results in a technical. Remember, if a defender reaches across and touches the ball before release, it's both a DOG warning and a technical. The reason this is the case is because if on the first time there's a technical for touching, it also counts as the first DOG warning so if there's just a subsequent reach across without touching, you get your second DOG warning and a T.

I hope that was clear. I just mean that the reaching that results in a technical for touching also counts as a DOG warning.

Adam

Rufus wrote
I think that's your answer. Violation of the throw-in plane. Since the violation occurs before the touching of the ball, no technical and issue a delay of game warning.

Snaqwells wrote
Right answer, wrong reasoning.

fiasco wrote
Huh?

I wasn't clear, so I've highlighted the incorrect reasoning above.

This is the one play where you can ignore the fact that the ball was touched and simply issue a DOG warning. But, you're not really ignoring it, because it's not against the rules.

Otherwise, as I explained in my post, you can't ignore the technical just because a violation happened before it. If you don't blow your whistle before the defense touches the ball, you have to call the T. The reasoning rufus gave would lead one to believe the following scenario should result in only a DOG warning:

A1 with ball OOB for a throw-in.
B1 reaches across and swings his arms. Official tells him to knock it off. B1 then slaps the ball.

This is a T, regardless of whether a warning has been issued, and a warning is also issued if it has not been already.

Rufus

I understand where you're going and appreciate the clarification. Would the fact that, in my post, I've already blown the ball dead before there is contact with the ball not have an impact on whether or not I call a T? In other words:

A1 has the ball to throw in (live ball)
B1 reached through the throw in plane (live ball)
I blow the whistle for the DOG (dead ball)
B1 contacts the ball while A1 still is holding it (dead ball)

The example you provided almost fits mine above, but rather than saying knock it off I'd blow it dead and issue a DOG. If I didn't blow it dead due to the violation then yes, I agree you have to call the T there.

Not trying to argue, just trying to get this right. Thanks.

fiasco

Mark Padgett wrote
OK - let's get ultra-technical (no pun intended). It's still a DOG warning, except the second one results in a technical. Remember, if a defender reaches across and touches the ball before release, it's both a DOG warning and a technical. The reason this is the case is because if on the first time there's a technical for touching, it also counts as the first DOG warning so if there's just a subsequent reach across without touching, you get your second DOG warning and a T.

I hope that was clear. I just mean that the reaching that results in a technical for touching also counts as a DOG warning.

Very good...makes sense.

Rufus

Never mind. Sorry Snaqs, Mark explained it in a way that finally sunk in.

Adam

Rufus wrote
I understand where you're going and appreciate the clarification. Would the fact that, in my post, I've already blown the ball dead before there is contact with the ball not have an impact on whether or not I call a T? In other words:

A1 has the ball to throw in (live ball)

B1 reached through the throw in plane (live ball)

I blow the whistle for the DOG (dead ball)

B1 contacts the ball while A1 still is holding it (dead ball)

The example you provided almost fits mine above, but rather than saying knock it off I'd blow it dead and issue a DOG. If I didn't blow it dead due to the violation then yes, I agree you have to call the T there.

Not trying to argue, just trying to get this right. Thanks.

Right on all counts.

bob jenkins

Rufus wrote
I understand where you're going and appreciate the clarification. Would the fact that, in my post, I've already blown the ball dead before there is contact with the ball not have an impact on whether or not I call a T? In other words:

A1 has the ball to throw in (live ball)

B1 reached through the throw in plane (live ball)

I blow the whistle for the DOG (dead ball)

B1 contacts the ball while A1 still is holding it (dead ball)

The example you provided almost fits mine above, but rather than saying knock it off I'd blow it dead and issue a DOG. If I didn't blow it dead due to the violation then yes, I agree you have to call the T there.

Not trying to argue, just trying to get this right. Thanks.

If it's all the same action ("reach-through-and-touch-the-held-ball-all-in-one-motion") then it's a T, no matter how quick your whistle.

If it's separate acts ("reach through and then make another stab at and touch the ball") then it's a DOG violation (the first time), no matter how slow the whistle.