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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 11, 2010, 01:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankHtown View Post
Ok...player has hands big enought to palm the basketball. Now, is the player holding it, even though it's on the floor?

Are his fingers closed around it? Have to judge whether or not he is controlling it, I am probably saying he is not unless he is obviously palming it and moving it around....a htbt for sure...
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 11, 2010, 01:46pm
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Originally Posted by Anchor View Post
Player is in control. There is no definition for "holding the ball" though the description meets the basic qualifications a held ball (4-25). I vote for traveling (though it is not a hill I am willing to die on).
NOPE Does not meet the "basic qualifications a held ball." Held ball must be by OPPONENTS - Read 4-25 again.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 11, 2010, 02:14pm
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Originally Posted by mbyron View Post
Which criterion of 'player control' has this player satisfied?
If the defender did a belly slide and grabbed the ball on each side while the guy had his hand on top would it be a held ball?
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 11, 2010, 02:39pm
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Great point, Anchor.

If the player on the floor could contest the defender taking the ball, then yes...he was "holding " the ball.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 11, 2010, 03:01pm
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Well, yes, but...

4-25
HELD BALL
A held ball occurs when:

4-25-1
Opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness.

It doesn't say they are "holding"...
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 11, 2010, 03:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anchor View Post
If the defender did a belly slide and grabbed the ball on each side while the guy had his hand on top would it be a held ball?
I asked about player control. You're talking about a held ball. Different animals.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 11, 2010, 03:38pm
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How can you have your hands firmly on the ball without holding it?

Let's get the NF to define what "holding ....a live ball inbounds" means. Until then my interpretation may be different from others.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 11, 2010, 03:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankHtown View Post
How can you have your hands firmly on the ball without holding it?

Let's get the NF to define what "holding ....a live ball inbounds" means. Until then my interpretation may be different from others.
Player goes up to shoot. Big guy there waiting for him. Puts one hand firmly on the ball and stuffs player, ball, and all back to the floor. Result: Held ball.
Did the defender actually hold the ball? NO
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 11, 2010, 04:16pm
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I know the rule sets are different, but the premise is the same, IMO. In football, a catch requires the ball not touch the ground; IOW the player does not catch it if he has trapped it with the ground. I would apply the same principal here, but only because the NFHS has not defined a player holding the ball.

If it's not clear, it's not a violation.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 11, 2010, 04:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
Player goes up to shoot. Big guy there waiting for him. Puts one hand firmly on the ball and stuffs player, ball, and all back to the floor. Result: Held ball.
Did the defender actually hold the ball? NO
Agree, but a different criterion is used in this particular case. And that criterion is that the defender prevented the shooter from releasing the ball. There is nothing in the rule governing this situation that states the defender also has to be holding the ball to prevent the shot.

Case book play 4.25.2

Note the usage of the word "criterion". I learned that one from our resident cunning linguist, MByron. I are now wise beyond my years.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 11, 2010, 04:33pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee View Post
There is nothing in the rule governing this situation that states the defender also has to be holding the ball to prevent the shot.

That was my whole point. I was answering a question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankHtown View Post
How can you have your hands firmly on the ball without holding it?
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 11, 2010, 04:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankHtown View Post
How can you have your hands firmly on the ball without holding it?
Anchor gave a pretty good example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anchor View Post
If the defender did a belly slide and grabbed the ball on each side while the guy had his hand on top would it be a held ball?
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 11, 2010, 04:52pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
That was my whole point. I was answering a question.
And the least that you coulda done was thank me for providing rules backing for your point.

But that's OK.......
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 11, 2010, 05:04pm
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JAR, I understand your point. The point I was trying to make concerns the player on the floor with his hand on the ball....not a defender blocking a shot.

Still the question is open: Does a hand on the ball while the ball is on the floor constitute holding the ball?

Has anyone ever seen a player dive for a loose ball, put a hand on it, and request a time out? Do you grant it or not? If you believe he/she is "holding" the ball, you should grant the time out. If you believe they are not holding the ball you let play continue. I'm of the school I'd grant the time out.

As Anchor said, if a defender then comes and puts their hand(s) on the ball, do you call a held ball? If the defender can't get it loose from the player on the floor with one hand on it, by definition, the player on the floor is "holding" it. I'd probably call a held ball also.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 11, 2010, 05:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankHtown View Post
JAR, I understand your point. The point I was trying to make concerns the player on the floor with his hand on the ball....not a defender blocking a shot.

Still the question is open: Does a hand on the ball while the ball is on the floor constitute holding the ball?

Has anyone ever seen a player dive for a loose ball, put a hand on it, and request a time out? Do you grant it or not? If you believe he/she is "holding" the ball, you should grant the time out. If you believe they are not holding the ball you let play continue. I'm of the school I'd grant the time out.

As Anchor said, if a defender then comes and puts their hand(s) on the ball, do you call a held ball? If the defender can't get it loose from the player on the floor with one hand on it, by definition, the player on the floor is "holding" it. I'd probably call a held ball also.
To me, holding the ball implies control. A player with the ball pinned to the floor can't do anything else with it except keep it pinned. I'm not granting this TO, and I'm not calling traveling, and I'm not starting a 5 second count.
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