did we get this right tonight?
 

A1 is shooting a jump shot. On his way down, still airborne, he gets fouled by B1. Just as I'm blowing my whistle, my partner is blowing his whistle for a different foul. I go to talk to him and I told him what I had. He told me he had a push on A2. Opposite teams fouling, he said double foul. I said to him "ok, A1 will shoot two and then we go to the arrow". He said no, double fouls eliminate each other and we go to the arrow.

I'm pretty sure we should have given A1 two shots and then either go to the arrow or give B the ball out of bounds for the foul on A2. It was a blowout game from a few minutes into the game, and this occurred in the 4th quarter so it's not like it was going to affect the outcome.

Help with this one please?

In addition to this, I called an intentional foul for a player pushing a shooter in the back, and a technical on a player for chest-bumping an opponent. Both on the team losing with a very frustrated coach and heckling fans. Wasn't a good game tonight, I would have much rather been elsewhere.

It's not a double foul; it's a simultaneous foul. Double fouls are committed by 2 opponents against each other. That didn't happen in your situation.

You charge each player with a foul, no FT's are shot and you resume at the POI. In this particular case, because the try had left the shooter's hands before the foul the POI also happens to be the arrow.

See rules 4-19-10, 4-36-2(c) and 10-6PENALTIES1(d).

This is a simultaneous foul, not a double foul - see 4-19-10, penalty summary is at the end of rule 10.

Other than that your partner was correct - no FT's, and since there was no team control at POI, you go to the arrow.

Wow, we really got it wrong then (except the part that no FT are shot). Thanks.

And now that you mentioned it, the POI would be the arrow because of no team possession.

Do Simultaneous fouls cancel each other out, which would be the reason not to be shooting anything? What if either team was in the bonus?

Because.....wait for it...... that's the rule...:D

PENALTIES: (Rule 10 Summary)
1. No free throws:
a. For each common foul before the bonus rule is in effect.
b. For a player-control or team-control foul.
c. For double personal or technical fouls (point of interruption).
d. For simultaneous personal or technical fouls by opponents (point of
interruption).
e. After time has expired for the fourth quarter (or extra period), unless
the point(s) would affect the outcome of the game.

See rule 10-6PENALTIES1(d). :)

That's kinda why I looked it up for you...so you could look it up....and learn it.

Not disputing your explanation Jurrassic, because it's correct. But as a newer official let me break it down "out loud", then you all can correct me if need be.

A1 is fouled in the act of shooting. Based on the OP, it's well after the shot is released. At approx. the same time, A2 fouls B2.

This is a simultaneous foul, not a double foul.

By rule, we go to Point of Interruption. My first instinct was to say that POI would be the free throw, but since the ball was released on a shot, there is no team control. This is why we go to the possession arrow.

If the A1 was fouled before the release of the shot, there would still be team control, thus the POI would be two free throws for A1. Is that correct?

Lah me.....

See rule 10-6PENALTIES1(d).:D

Then see rule 4-36-2(a)

No FT's and team A gets a throw-in(without the arrow changing).

Now you guys tell me where the A throw-in location is, by rule? And a rules reference would be just peachy-keen too. :D

Well that would be the spot nearest to where the ball was located at the time of interruption 4.19.10

Actually it's in rule 4-36-2(a), as I cited in the same post asking that question. I was just kinda wondering if anybody would take the time to look that cite up.

I was about to put that, but the case book used clearer language to me. It also cites 7-5-3b

Thanks for the explanation. My "disappearance" was because I went to play some pick-up basketball with my buddies at the local Y. But I just wanted to say thanks.

So according to your explanations, we pretty much did everything correct, except that we called it a double foul instead of simultaneous. I emailed my partner prior to leaving and told him that we got it all right except that it is a simultaneous foul instead of double foul. He has emailed me back to say that he agreed after reading the rulebook on that one.

Thanks again!

Unless, of course, the try was good. ;)

Why are you asking?
From your previous posts on the forum, I thought that you were an ACE and knew everything. :eek:

Which it wasn't. Which is why I added "in this particular case".

But that's still a good point for teaching purposes.

Yeah, you got everything right except that neither of you also knew that you had to go to the POI instead of an AP. You just got lucky because in your particular situation the POI also happened to be an AP.

Sooooo, before you and your partner throw out a shoulder patting each other on the back, you should both realize that (a) neither of you knew the correct rules or how to apply them, and (b) it was sheer luck that the play ended up being called correctly.

LOL, Way to burst his bubble JR.

Yeah, I realize that now. It was sheer luck. I don't know what my partner was thinking, maybe he did think "ok, it's POI", just didn't say that when we got together for that.

As a 2nd yr. newbie (not board certified) I've found this thread very helpful in getting a clearer understanding of double and simultaneous fouls. I have always found these confusing on tests and despite my wearing the print off the applicable sections of the rule book and case book regarding double&simultaneous fouls I've never felt confident in my ability to recognize which one occurred, determine if player and/or team control existed, and administer the whole thing properly, with confidence and certainty in the heat of a game. I'm sure like the OP, I may have gotten it right by luck...not by firm knowledge and understanding of all aspects of the rule.
To Jurassic, Tim,& Bits, thanks for your replies...with my books on my lap and reading and re-reading your posts I think now I've got it down, here's my own recap...kind of a way for me to keep it straight on the court in the heat of a game:
(1) A1&B1 commit a PF or TF on each other at approx. the same time=
DOUBLE FOUL 4-19-8 (a) (Ex> A1&B1 shoving each other underneath the basket)
(2) A1 commits a PF or TF on B1 AND at approx. the same time A2 commits a PF or TF on B2=
SIMULTANEOUS FOUL 4-19-10 (Ex> Sitch in OP)
(3) Each player is charged with a PF
(4) No FREE THROWS and resume play at POI
10-6 Summary 1(c) and 1(d) and 4-36-1; 4-36-2(a) or 4-36-2(b)
EXCEPT if there was no team control then....
(5) Resume play by the A/P arrow 4-36-2(c)
(6) If any of the fouls are flagrant player 9s) who committed flagrant foul(s) are DQ'd.
Do I have it right?

You resume play at the POI whether or not there was team control.

The POI might be the arrow.

No, in #2 you have two teammates committing fouls against different opponents at approximately the same time. A simultaneous foul involves fouls committed by opposing teams, not the same team. The NFHS currently has no rule to cover the situation which you have posted.

Also, your resumption of play is bit off. Remember to include the three step process for POI: 1. ball to team in control. 2. ball to team entitled to FT or throw-in. 3. AP arrow.

I beg to differ, CumquatHead.

It'a a false multiple foul, as per NFHS 4-20-12. You've got 2 or more fouls committed by the same team and the last foul is committed before the clock is started following the first foul. The attribute of a multiple foul that is missing is that the fouls aren't committed against the same opponent, but against 2 separate opponents. All of the other attributes of a multiple foul under 4-19-11 are there.

The rules cover the penalty application too. Each foul of a false multiple foul carries it's own penalty, as per 10-6PENALTIES7.

Bob, Nevada, Jurassic:
Thanks for reviewing my post and for pointing out where I was a bit off. I now know/understand a whole lot better than I did yesterday.

Well if that's what you think, then let me ask you this: if the fouls occur simultaneously and at the start of the play the team had five team fouls in that half, which opposing player would be awarded FTs?

The shortest one, naturally. That's called the "Chuck Elias/RockyRoad Rule.

I was well aware that part of the penalty application wasn't covered in the rules. That doesn't change the fact that the the FED does have a rule to cover the situation. By definition and rule, it's a false multiple foul. Note that "foul definitions" and their penalty applications are covered under separate rules.

Or do you dispute that the definition of a "false multiple foul" doesn't cover the situation being discussed?

Sooooooo, now it's up to you to use your vaunted, self-proclaimed magical Spidey powers with the NFHS Rules Committee to get the penalty phase covered. I await that happening with bated breath.