T for both teams to start game

[chartrusepengui]

We had our association meeting last night. Guys from two states attending. The following situation was discussed at length - sometimes heatedly.

At 16:00 min mark of warm-up period - A1 dunks ball. Officials see and administer a T. At 9:00 min mark of warm-up period - Team B1 dunks ball. Officials see and administer a T. Q = how to start the game.

Two camps.

1. Administer the penalties in the order in which the T's occurred. So B shoots 2 free throws, then A shoots 2 free throws and gets ball at division line with the possession arrow now pointing to B. Rationale: T's were at same time so not a double T.

2. Neither team shoots free throws as was a "double" T and go to POI which is a jump ball in this instance. Rationale: since both T's were for pregame dunks - it would constitute a double technical situation.

Where do you stand?

[JRutledge]

I am not sure how you can have a double foul for actions that are not directly against each other. You have to penalize in the order in which they took place and give the ball to the team that was "offended" last.

Peace

[chartrusepengui]

That was what was actually done. However, one of the officials at the game wasn't sure they had handled it properly said that they had called the NFHS and were told it should have started with a jump ball - which is why we were having the conversation at all. I don't know who they spoke with and am not sure whether it was the NFHS or state.

I feel sure it cannot be any type of double foul and don't understand why they would have received information that goes against what I read in the rules/case books - therefore my OP.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

That was what was actually done. However, one of the officials at the game wasn't sure they had handled it properly said that they had called the NFHS and were told it should have started with a jump ball - which is why we were having the conversation at all. I don't know who they spoke with and am not sure whether it was the NFHS or state.

I feel sure it cannot be any type of double foul and don't understand why they would have received information that goes against what I read in the rules/case books - therefore my OP.

Well it technically is a false double foul, but that basically means each action took place before the clock starts. So by rule this would be a false double foul, but then again you do not call one of these, these just happen and the rules have a classification.

Peace

[chartrusepengui]

I understand what you are saying. I just have a hard time because of the time factor. 7 plus minutes in time differential makes it difficult for me to even see it as a false double foul - but by strict definition it is.

After the situation was stated I was the first to voice and advocate option 1 posted in OP which started an interesting conversation.

[Welpe]

These seem to fit the criteria of a false double foul, which would have both teams shoot their respective shots and the ball is awarded to A for a throw-in to start the game. 4-19-4

[truerookie]

This should have been a poll.

I vote for 1.

[Welpe]

Wouldn't the game start with a jump ball in this situation under NCAA rules?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

That was what was actually done. However, one of the officials at the game wasn't sure they had handled it properly said that they had called the NFHS and were told it should have started with a jump ball - which is why we were having the conversation at all. I don't know who they spoke with and am not sure whether it was the NFHS or state.

I feel sure it cannot be any type of double foul and don't understand why they would have received information that goes against what I read in the rules/case books - therefore my OP.

Whomever s/he talked to gave the incorrect information. 6.4.1A is an example (although it uses different reasons for the T) of this.

Originally Posted by Welpe

Wouldn't the game start with a jump ball in this situation under NCAA rules?

Yes, no matter the number of Ts. Any series of single non-flagrant Ts goes to POI -- which is the jump ball in this situation.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Yes, no matter the number of Ts. Any series of single non-flagrant Ts goes to POI -- which is the jump ball in this situation.

Not on the Men's side. Any dead ball contact T is not POI. You enforce that just like a high school T with the ball at the division line after the FTs.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by hoopsaddict

Sorry to bring this back up again, but it came up in my association meeting last night and I don't see a clear answer in the post. Some say that we'd adminster them as they occured. I dont have my rule book with me and haven't had a chance to view it but my question is does warm-ups count as time. Wouldn't it all be a dead ball situation prior to the game so it wouldn't matter that one occured 7 minutes later because no time ran of the actual clock as we're still before tip?

They are not at the same time. Enforce them in the order they occur.

Suppose during a stoppage of play, A1 taunts B1. That's a T.

Then, there's a TO. Then the other team wants a TO. Now the table has some sort of problem. 7 minutes elapse.

Now, B1 swears at A1. That's another T.

Are you going to offset them? OF course not.

Same thing in the OP.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by hoopsaddict

That makes sense I wasn't thinking about it in that way.

Just to add rules support to bob's excellent example...

These are a false double foul....one occurs after the other but before the clock is started following the first.