T for both teams to start game
 

We had our association meeting last night. Guys from two states attending. The following situation was discussed at length - sometimes heatedly.

At 16:00 min mark of warm-up period - A1 dunks ball. Officials see and administer a T. At 9:00 min mark of warm-up period - Team B1 dunks ball. Officials see and administer a T. Q = how to start the game.

Two camps.

1. Administer the penalties in the order in which the T's occurred. So B shoots 2 free throws, then A shoots 2 free throws and gets ball at division line with the possession arrow now pointing to B. Rationale: T's were at same time so not a double T.

2. Neither team shoots free throws as was a "double" T and go to POI which is a jump ball in this instance. Rationale: since both T's were for pregame dunks - it would constitute a double technical situation.

Where do you stand?

I am not sure how you can have a double foul for actions that are not directly against each other. You have to penalize in the order in which they took place and give the ball to the team that was "offended" last.

Peace

These seem to fit the criteria of a false double foul, which would have both teams shoot their respective shots and the ball is awarded to A for a throw-in to start the game. 4-19-4

That was what was actually done. However, one of the officials at the game wasn't sure they had handled it properly said that they had called the NFHS and were told it should have started with a jump ball - which is why we were having the conversation at all. I don't know who they spoke with and am not sure whether it was the NFHS or state.

I feel sure it cannot be any type of double foul and don't understand why they would have received information that goes against what I read in the rules/case books - therefore my OP.

This should have been a poll.

I vote for 1.

Wouldn't the game start with a jump ball in this situation under NCAA rules?

Well it technically is a false double foul, but that basically means each action took place before the clock starts. So by rule this would be a false double foul, but then again you do not call one of these, these just happen and the rules have a classification.

Peace

I understand what you are saying. I just have a hard time because of the time factor. 7 plus minutes in time differential makes it difficult for me to even see it as a false double foul - but by strict definition it is.

After the situation was stated I was the first to voice and advocate option 1 posted in OP which started an interesting conversation.

Whomever s/he talked to gave the incorrect information. 6.4.1A is an example (although it uses different reasons for the T) of this.

Yes, no matter the number of Ts. Any series of single non-flagrant Ts goes to POI -- which is the jump ball in this situation.

Not on the Men's side. Any dead ball contact T is not POI. You enforce that just like a high school T with the ball at the division line after the FTs.

Peace

First T at the 16 min. mark?

The officials were out watching warm-ups at the 16 min. mark?

Around these parts...we don't go out untill the 15 min. mark...and most times a little later.

"15/12/10/2" is our standard.

Methinks the officials in the OP's area need to do some case book reading. :rolleyes:

We are to be on the court 20 minutes prior to tip. They don't allow the clock for warm-ups start, or teams on the court until we are there.

Maybe in your area. They start the clock when the teams hit the court in mine -- we're just expected to be ready to go then.

Yeah, it's mostly a local NE WI thing - when we get further west or down to GB they do it when both teams hit court but we are expected to be there as well.

#1.

4-19-8b
Double fouls:
A double technical foul is a situation in which two opponents commit technical fouls against each other at approximately the same time.

I certainly wouldn't consider the 16 and 9 minute mark "at approximately the same time."

In #2, the definition doesn't say the act has to be the same, it says "at approximately the same time."

Therefore, you've got to go with #1 and in the order they occurred.

And both coaches remained on the bench
for the entire game!

In NCAAM, additionally, single non-contact flagrant technical fouls resume at the division line.

In NCAAW, only single flagrant technicals resume at the division line. A dead ball non-flagrant contact technical resumes play at POI.

While the rule says "at least 15 minutes" and your jurisdiction begins when you go on to the court, I think you are asking for trouble if you go out there before the 15 minute mark.

Why are they wanting you out at 20?

It's a state adaptation in WI that supersedes the NFHS rule. Period.

We are required to be there at 20:00 and that's the starting time on the clock.

yup

I often find 15 minutes to be a long time. 20 would be even less fun...... :(

It's no fun, trust me. If there's no band, it's even worse. :D

not the band I had the other night. WOW! Most horrible band I have EVER heard. Just when you thought it was over - they played what we think was supposed to be the national antherm. :eek:

Turned up the heat on this one, did they?:D

I still can't seem to think straight - it was like kryptonite

I was working a big game the end of last season and the band was on the stage behind me while I was observing one of the teams. The director and I acknowledged each other and then he asked if I had any requests.

Then they played "Eye of the Tiger" for me. Fortunately I was able to enjoy the whole thing before the captains meeting.

It's especially fun when both teams go in.

Actually, in those situations, we'll return our jackets to the locker room or adjourn to a side hall for some additional stretching and come back to the floor when one of the teams returns.

At my game my request would have been to please, PLEASE, FOR GODS SAKE PLEASE STOP!!!!!!!!!

I believe there is also something about losing the ball in NCAAW (but not NCAAM) for requesting an excessive timeout. Can you confirm? Where is the ensuing throw-in?

Yes, the team loses the ball. the throw in is at the same spot (called "poi" in the rules book, even though that doesn't make much sense to me).

They are not at the same time. Enforce them in the order they occur.

Suppose during a stoppage of play, A1 taunts B1. That's a T.

Then, there's a TO. Then the other team wants a TO. Now the table has some sort of problem. 7 minutes elapse.

Now, B1 swears at A1. That's another T.

Are you going to offset them? OF course not.

Same thing in the OP.

Just to add rules support to bob's excellent example...

These are a false double foul....one occurs after the other but before the clock is started following the first.