170 - 35 (100-12 at half)...Starters start 2nd Half
 

High School Blog - Another coach defends decision in lopsided game - ESPN Dallas

Thoughts?

During the game, NMB.

As a fan of the game, I'm not sure, but it would depend on how long the starters played in the 2nd half.

The more interesting thing to me, was the incident in the second half. Seems from the interview that both benches cleared completely as a result of a "hard foul."

Everyone who wasn't on the floor when the play happened was DQ'd. So the game continued with just 10 total players eligible.

Crazy crazy game.

Bet It Was a Close Game at the Jump Ball
 

Thought #1) At least it didn't go into overtime. :)
Thought #2) Not really an officiating issue.
Thought #3) Were plumbers doing the game? ;)
Thought #4) I wonder what this coach's peers are saying about this account on whatever coaching discussion board there might be.

This coach is definitely getting a bad rap, IMO. He's getting criticized for keeping his starters in the game for such a long period of time, especially in the second half.

But, he played all 15 of his players in the 1st half.

Then, he brought out his starters to start the 3rd quarter. This is pretty much common practice from what I understand, even with a big lead. You have to keep your best playersr "fresh."

Then, with only a little over a minute gone in the 3rd quarter, the "scuffle" happened, and everyone except the starters who were on the floor were DQ'd. So he had no choice but to play them the entire second half.

How is that bad sportsmanship?

I usually go back to my starters in the second half with a big lead (under 25 points). Anything over that, and I see no need of putting them back on the court. If you are beating a team by 88 and have hit the century mark at half, then your own practice is significantly more competitive than what the other team is putting on the court against you.

I just can't defend the coach here for any reason.

If you're up by that many points at halftime, you go into a passing "offense" where you only shoot layups. If you don't get a layup, then you don't shoot it. There is no call for this big of a margin. I thought my 100-34 game last night was poor sportsmanship

-Josh

Let me guess throughout the game the team that won was running a full court press defense throughout the game, & the only way the opposing team could easily get the ball in would of been to run a 2-person OOB.

Having so many players DQ'd, from each team, shouldn't that of ended the game?

Can I ask what level you've officiated and for how long?

-Josh

Josh....none and never....he runs the clock......

In NV, three or more people leaving the team bench during an altercation makes that team forfeit. If both teams have three or more come off, then the game is terminated and ruled a double forfeit per a state association regulation.

In short, this game would have ended right then and there in my state.

I don't see that in "the" rulebook! :D

In case y'all were wondering, this was not one of my games. ;)

I am curious to hear if there will be any communication from our chapter about this game.

the coach is a jackass

"Yates High School, near Houston..."

This is the same school which just participated in the NFHS sponsored tournament in Mobile, Alabama.

How embarrassing for the NFHS to have them display a total lack of sportsmanship against a much weaker opponent. :eek:

*The school easily won both of its games in the tournament.

I believe that one of the officials tucked the basketball under his shirt before explaining the situation to the coaches. :D

All the radio stations in Houston were all over this today. As far as I'm concerned, not much we can do from an officiating standpoint. Like others have pointed us, Yates was forced to put in their starters after the "scuffle" happened.

I'd be interested to see what the officials who worked the game thought about the game.

LOL!!!!

Peace

I noticed that too! Yikes! Guess he was doing his part to keep the score down. :D

I am in the camp with believing this score is rediculous and this is totally unsportsmanlike behavior.

We've all refereed blowouts, but this is stupid. And yes, we have no control over it......

I too believe there is no need to press, no need to fast break, etc. There are things that a team can work on in these situations that won't necessarily run up the score this much.

I acknowledge the coach played his subs and I realize you've got to get your starters playing time, but what do these kids learn about life? When you're a big bully you kick people when they're down? Sad.

I see both sides of the story from my foxhole. However, I do believe playing the game is like calling the game. You cannot take a play off. Things could have been done differently. However, the losing team could have taking care of the ball better too. No win situation across the board.

Why would you guess that? Only because you've "discovered" this "new 2-person OOB" throw-in?

It shouldn't OF anything. Time to give back your GED.

Ouch...

I resemble this thread: http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...tml#post648892

've definition

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have: used in contractions, often informally we've seen it; where've you been?

of definition

of (uv)

1. from; specif.,
>>>> 1. derived or coming from men of Ohio...

I believe is comes out to roughly 5.3 ppm (points per minute). Wow.

Texas is 8 minute quarters right?

I worked a girls varsity game last night, defending 4A (largest classification) state champs (and still loaded, though their best player was injured and only 7 of 10 players dressed because of injuries) vs a very overmatched 0-13 team. Surprisingly close for the first 5 or so very ugly minutes, then the better team steadily pulled away...56-17 at half, 78-25 after 3 quarters, no press in the 2nd half. In the 4th quarter the winning coach told her girls no more fast breaks, work only on half court set plays with multiple passes. At 98-30 with 1:17 remaining it was obvious they would break the century mark. Instead, coming out of a timeout she had her girls work on a half court offense that stressed inside/outside passing; they ran the clock out without ever taking another shot.

I thought it was a class coaching act because she kept her girls working hard on basics, good defense and offensive areas to improve on while not belittling the losing team (who played hard throughout, BTW) by just pulling back and dribbling/passing around the perimeter or running up the score (they could've easily scored 120-130 had they wanted to). It was neither a pretty game nor fun to work, but it could have been soooooooo much worse.

My first year as a head coach, we gave up 100 a couple (three?) times. It's not a traumatic experience or anything. If the opposing coach ended up giving a live interview on ESPN the next day because the blogosphere had run with it, that probably would've hurt more! We were young, learning to play pressure defense and handle pressure defense. So when we were down 80-30 to start the 4th, we kept playing hard, playing full-court defenses, and improving. Two years later we made a nice run into the playoffs and set a school record for wins.

I think these things get way overblown. I agree a coach who has his team hold the ball with 98 and a minute left is classy. But I don't think that necessarily means that a coach who allows his team to score there is a jerk.

Yes, Texas plays with 8 minute quarters.

Reminds me very much of a game I had 2-3 years ago that had a different outcome. One team was getting outplayed from start to finish and the stronger team was still playing hard when, with about 2 minutes to go and the score 98 to something a lot less, the visiting/loosing team calls a timeout.

The visiting coach gave them a challenge to just hold the ball for the rest of the game and not let the other team get a chance to make 100.

They were doing a pretty good job of it for about 75 seconds when a pass got picked off out top...off the other way with the guy who threw the pass in chase. As the shooter is going up for shot, he gets hit hard (and makes the shot). Unfortunately, he didn't get up for about 5 minutes...he did eventually get up and walk off.

We counted the bucket, shot 2 FT for the intentional (excessive contact...the defender was actually going for the ball but just overly aggressive).

1 of 2 FTs made...final score...101-3x.

I'm guessing that it was the last time the winning team played a blowout like that (and since they're really good, they've probably been in several).

Actually I was guessing that cause of watching them at the T-Mobile Invite.

Below, is a link that shows the stats for the Mighty Lions so far this year.

High School Sports | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

They won 1 game this year by only one point while participating in the Iolani Classic in Hawaii. The team that they beat by 1 point was from the NE Corner of the US.

This is maybe only marginally an officiating question, but you all are so knowledgeable and generous with your opinions...

What is to prevent a coach on the short end of such a massacre to take a forfeit, assuming that the official score for a forfeit will likely be something more akin to 10-0? This would perhaps dampen the enthusiasm of the next team trying to "get to 200" against an inferior team.

What is the procedure for a coach to do this (eg., just walk off the court)?

Do state HS athletic governing bodies punish teams for taking (voluntary) forfeits?

When I was a sophomore, we had, in our conference, one of the state powerhouses in our class. We had them on their court on senior night, and our coach prepared and asked us if we would be willing to walk out if they ran the score up on us.

Sure enough, start of the 4th quarter, they're by 60-70 points, and their starters come out of the huddle to start the quarter. We walked out. Coach was suspended by the state for two games, IIRC; but I don't think he cared.

Generally, a forfeit is scored at 2-0. I can just hear the conversation between an AD and a coach after a walk-off.

AD: "What's the matter with you? So you were getting clobbered. They're a much better team and that was to be expected!"

Coach: "Yeah, but the final score goes down as 2-0. We beat the spread!"

MAny years ago- when I played in HS - we had a team beat us by 70 some points...we had to play them again a couple weeks later. We worked on the UNC 4-corner offense for two weeks. They beat us by 5 (32-27) the next time, but their coach got tossed for yelling insults at our coach for being "afraid to play basketball". Idiot...

If the team that forfeits is behind, the score at the time of the forfeit stands. If the team that forfeits is winning, then the score becomes 2-0 in favor of the other team.

Thanks for clarifying that, Bob. Is that known as the "Tim Donaghy rule"? :D

Hands Down ...
 

My nomination for post o' the week. Mark Padgett has outdone himself with this post. Priceless.

No. It's known as rule 5-4-1. If you and a certain other poster would spend half as much time in the rules and case books as you do searching for and posting assinine pictures and irrelevant comments, you'd know that. And, without the bottom 80% of your comments, the remaining 20% would seem funny.

Sounds like Bob needs a Welmer nap ;)

My game tonight was 78-19. The winning team could've scored 120 if they wanted to.

Walking off
 

In North Carolina, a school gets a pretty stiff fine if they remove their team from the field or court before the completion of a game. A coaching friend of mine found that out the hard way 20+ years ago....his team was trailing at the end of three quarters by about 60 when his opponent sent the starters in at the beginning of the 4th period. He pulled his team off the court and went straight to the dressing room. Found out about the fine the next morning when the principal chewed him out. The fine was taken out of his coaching supplement.

Good Examples
 

While basking in the warmth of the heat of the discussion at hand, I can sometimes overlook the efforts of the many, many good coaches of the student-athletes involved in this character building process called high school sports. Here's just two examples of box scores of area "blow-out" games from last night:

2 2 5 15 — 24
20 13 6 10 — 49

2 0 0 10 — 12
11 16 7 4 — 38

And I'm sure you're morning papers reveals similar reports.
Sure, box scores don't tell the whole story. And admittedly, these victorious coaches won't get any interviews on ESPN or sanctions by their schools, but I am grateful for the times when I'm in the same gym as they are.
It's fun being a part of educational athletics when all parties involved approach it with the same sporting perspective, isn't it?!

If I understand my state's rules correctly (MI), if a coach pulls the team off the floor in protest, the coach has to appear before the state association to explain why they don't deserve additional sanctions.

I don't really have a problem with it. If you don't want to take a beat down like that, you have to get better, period. That's how I'd feel if I was the losing coach; we gotta get better. There's not much shame in getting run over by a high powered machine like that. It feels worse to lose a close game.

If you're a zone D team, you play zone D. If you're a M2M team, you play M2M. And if you're a pressing team, then you press! What you never ever do is ask your kids to ease up, or lower your standards for hustle and execution on the defensive side. You can do things on the offensive end- run shot clock down, make 5-6 passes before any shot, play kids out of position, etc. But no coach I ever been around would ask for or tollerate less than best effort on defense.

Regardless of score, the same 5 who started the game always start the 2nd half. Thats standard practice, though certainly not written in stone. Those 5 have earned their starting positions. If they don't start the 2nd half, the effect is that coach is punishing them for being too good. I want to keep my starters motivated, and I reward them for being the best players by starting them. In this Texas example, the starters apparently had to finish the game because the entire benches on both squads were ejected for leaving the bench after a hard foul, 1 minute into the 2nd half.

I haven't heard Lee HS complain in the media about it. Apparently they get it. If you want to be competetive, you have to play well. If you don't play well, you better get better.

I disagree. There are a lot of things you can do.

If you're a M2M team, you change to zone, so they can learn a new part of the game...and vice versa. If you're a pressing team, you fall back and play half court. It does you no good to tune your press on a team that can't challenge it. You put your team into a situation that will challenge them...at least more than doing what they're best at.

You match your guards up on their post players, you match your post players up on their guards. Make your guards learn to play against bigger opponents and make your post players learn how to defend on the perimeter. That will do them a lot more good for their personal skill development than letting them dominate a weaker opponent in their strongest positions.

I don't care if Lee HS complains about it. I could not disagree with you more. This is a NFHS basketball game. If this team (and coach) are so good, certainly they can come up with a way to play good aggressive man-to-man HALFCOURT defense. Some teams just AREN'T as talented. It has NOTHING to do with working harder, getting better or anything else. We discuss "Sportsmanship" BEFORE every game. If you think 100-12 at half and 170-35 while pressing the entire game meets the definition of "good sportsmanship" expected by the NFHS Rules Committee, I think you are sadly mistaken.

Starting the second half with your STARTERS with a 100-12 halftime lead -- NICE TOUCH!!! "Standard Practice" -- BULL!!! "Standard Practice" does NOT involve an 88 point half time lead. Classless, you can't convince me otherwise, you can't make excuses otherwise. This coach is nothing but BUSH LEAGUE PERIOD.

Generally, coaches have some level of intelligence. They have the ability to evaluate a situation and take good logical steps to gain the most out of a situation. This coach's actions make it appear as though coaches have NO ABILITY to adjust to situations that occur in a game. We ALWAYS start our best players. We ALWAYS press. We ALWAYS FAST BREAK. We ALWAYS start our starters to start the second half.

I am embarassed to be associated with the coaching profession. This was a disgrace.

I will say, I will be rooting for lots of other teams from the Lone Star State come tournament time.

Just my own personal opinion.

aww, shut up, jk
 

I've had to deal with this kind of situation 3 out of my last 4 games; however no where near the degree of this Texas example. I'm somewhat embarased and feel badly for my opponent when we win by a big margin. I can't imagine how I'd feel if we beat a team by such a huge margin. In these games, we were up 30+ points in the 1st half in each one. We press, but stop when we get a 20 point lead. If the opponent gets it under 20, we press again. I do what I can to not run it up; play subs most of the minutes, play kids out of position, etc.

What we never do is compromize our standards. We are never going to pull back and just let a team easily catch and shoot, no mater the score. That's how bad habits develop. My last player off the bench better be fronting the post, denying the wing, pressuring the ball, challenging all shots, and playing just as hard as my 1-5 players for the entire game no matter what the score is. Last Friday we were up by 29 with several minutes left. It was all subs in the game and they started playing slow, not flying around like I demand. I called a time out to remind them that their playing time is directly effected by their hustle on the defensive end. I also didn't allow my team to shoot the ball in our last 2 possessions.

Who we are and what we do is independent of the score, or said another way, the score is irrelevant to our standards. My IRL job before I retired was a forestry firefighter. I retired as a captain; so I know a thing or two about never compromizing your standards, it's ingrained in me. While I've never been anywhere near the situation of this Texas team, I'd like to believe that my standards for my team would be the same even with a 100+ point lead. "This is who we are, and this is what we do." The score board is irrelevant.

I know you don't agree, and that's fine. You are good at what you do, and I'm good at what I do. Some of you have coaching experience, but I suspect if you were very good at it, or enjoyed coaching, you wouldn't be posting here as an official. It's not for everyone. I'm good at what I do and not by the standard of winning, but by the standard of kids have fun and they learn about more than just how to make a lay up or defend the pick & roll. They learn life skills, like my coaches taught me. The question begs to be asked, what do kids learn from me by this "standard." They learn to always give their best effort. They learn to never compromize their personal, or an organizations (team) standards. They learn the reward of hard work. When we are up like that (score board) I'm reminding my kids at every time out to help them up if you knock them down, be humble, don't trash talk, etc. But always, always, keep playing hard. We want our opponents to know we are going to play them hard, and they are in for a battle, even when we are not good. We want that to be our "corner stone." We win not because it's the goal, but because we have high standards and we don't compromize them. Winning is the result of doing things right. Having high standards and not compromizing is part of doing things right. Worked for me IRL in the fire aservice, and works coaching too.

I'm in the NW corner of CA. A geographical area notorious for being socially liberal and soft. If I was a bully, or a run-it-up type coach, I wouldn't last.

BBCoach,
Actually, I love to coach and I love to officiate. BOTH jobs are very challenging and very rewarding. Not many folks have a passion for both. I do -- in both soccer and basketball.

I have no problem whatsoever with playing aggressively throughout the game. A team can play an aggresssive non-trapping man-to-man defense all game long. If a team cannot effectively run a halfcourt offense, I don't care how well they run on the break, I can beat them. I can drop four players back on a shot, if need be. The point is, I can pretty much force you to beat me in the half court (obviously, if I don't have any "horses", this may not apply, but someone will have the ability to force this coach's team to run a half court offense).

Therefore, once a team is up 100 - 12 at halftime, this would present an excellent opportunity to work on a half court offense. Work on holding the ball for the final shot at the end of a quarter by running 15 - 30 seconds off the clock three or four possessions in a row. Teams must still remain very focused in order to protect the ball and get a high percentage shot at a particular time interval.

You indicated that your team manages to keep up its intensity while not full court pressing. My team can do the same. Why could this coach not figure out the same thing? Winning by 135 points in a NFHS game just fails the logic test, in my opinion.

By the way, good discussion on this topic.

you missunderstood me
 

Or maybe I wasn't clear. Yes, I agree there are a lot of things you can do.

I essentially agree with you. I'm a defensive minded coach, and any coach who presses a lot is too. So I have multiple defenses. If I'm way up on the board, then I will work on my weakest defense by playing it a lot. But it isn't going to make a lot of difference because as any coach will tell you, you can run anything -offense and defense- against an over matched team and it will be effective. I agree about not pressing. There's no such thing as a pressing team that doesn't have a half court defense. You have to. Even this TX team will eventually meet a team in the playoffs that can beat its press.

I essentially agree with you. Except that in this particular TX situation, and in that particular game, there's no such thing. When one team is that much better, you can't even the playing field; and if you really try, the humiliation is even greater. Best thing is to just get it over with.

I've done exactly that, and against an overmatched opponent, it made little difference in the dominance. It's just embarassing to them. I know, I've been on the recieving end of such attempts at charity. This did work to keep the score down at Jr High level. But my posts in HS can put the ball on the floor and shoot from outside much better than when they were in Jr High. And my smalls work on post moves and post defense 2-3 times a week.

But, I agree with your premise.... there's always something a coach can do to make it more fair. For me the goal is to balance that with not appearing to be giving "charity." That's worse.

Sounds like we're on the same page then. ;)

waaaaay off topic, but
 

(since you're a coach too) as an example of you can run anything and it will work against an inferior opponent, the 1st two possessions last Friday night my team ran "Swing" (our M2M O) against a 2-3 zone. We got the lay up on the flex cut both times. I was hollering "13" (zone O for two guard front) and they couldn't hear me. So the PG just called out "Swing." Probably should have let them keep running it:D

It is kind of interesting to get the viewpoint of these outa-sight games from a coach's standpoint. But what we have to remember as officials is that that none of it is really that relevant to what we are supposed to do.

We're supposed to call the game evenly and equitably with no bias shown at either end, no matter what we might personally think about a team running up the score. Yes, we might make a few "adjustments" to try and get the game over quicker, but these adjustments shouldn't be made to the detriment of either team. One of the adjustments is to make damn sure that the players on the winning team show absolutely NO signs of any unsporting behavior that might set off the losing team. No trash-talking, posing, pointing, exuberant displays, etc, should be allowed. Nip 'em, nip 'em in the bud!! Imo our main job in one of these games is just to ensure that the game is kept under control until we can get t'hell outa there. We surashell don't want any incidents to occur from retaliation to the score being run up. And during the game, do not make any comments to anybody about the score being run up. The comment might be directed to your partner only, but you may be overheard...and quoted.

And post-game, also keep your comments strictly between you and your officiating buds. Do NOT make any comments to anyone else about the score being run up or the lack of sportsmanship shown. It's is up to that league's governing body to take any further action if they deem it warranted; it is no longer our bidness. If you are asked for a report, stick strictly to the facts. Keep your personal opinion out of it.

JMHKGP.

One thing I like about FL is that in the 2nd half, there is a running clock if a team leads by 35 or more points. That would get those kinds of games over more quickly and coaches would know that players who normally do not get as many minutes will need to be in there early to get much playing time.