Disconcertion from bench
 

This happened during the game before mine in a tournament I was at today.

Team A is shooting free throws in the second half. Every time A shoots, bench personnel from Team B gives a friendly reminder to her teammates to "box out and rebound". Thing is, every time, they yell this as A is releasing the shot.

A made most of the free throws I saw while this was going on, so it probably didn't matter much anyways, but I'll take a stab at what could be done, and you all can correct me if I'm wrong.

Based on similar plays from the case book, it's in the official's judgement whether or not the thrower was disconcerted. If she was, then I should award a substitute throw to A, and politely tell B's bench to shut up. Hopefully that would be enough. But what if it isn't?

I'm assuming you would proceed with a T on bench personnel?

What say you? There's a good chance I will be on one of Team B's games later in the tournament, and I'd like to be prepared.

There was an NFHS POE issued several years ago that confirmed that you could call disconcertion on the opponent's bench, and that you could also call a team technical foul if you felt that the disconcertion was unsporting in nature.

Judgment call on both. Not a bad idea imo to warn first.

I agree with you on the warning. Not sure if sophomores know what disconcertion even means

I wouldn't be afraid to call the disconcertion. That should stop it quickly after the cat calls are over with. The only question is do you warn with that one, or give the disconcertion call a chance to work.

Sub-V I will warn the player in the lane or the bench. "Son (or coach) next time that's a violation." Don't recall ever going back and "getting it" later as it stops.

One time during a Wreck League game I actually said, "Alright, who's got the shooter?"

Young man said, "Me."

I said, "Good, now there's no need to talk about it anymore, right?" :rolleyes:

They got the msg.

never given a T for it but I have done a few warnings. The thing is some refs let it go and teams sometimes do it really inconsistently so it usually isn't an issue or they don't even know what they are doing is wrong. Warnings and make sure they are trying to mess up the shooter but yeah for sure let them know because it is something to limit.

So what about the one situation mentioned on here in an earlier posting where an opposing team's player lets out gas while in position as the FT Shooter was shooting? :cool:

You can't really give a warning to mother nature can you? :):p;):D

That's exactly what I feel like doing when I read most of your posts.

Maybe we can call you for disconcertion.:)

I've done this, too. It works well if you can do it early in the game. It lets them know you've got a problem with it, as well as how silly it sounds.

We had a JV double header where, during the girls game, the home boys were sitting on the front row stomping their feet. They were right next to the bench, and dressed, so I had to do a double take.

We simply had them move up into the bleachers to make it easier on us. I may have overstepped, but they complied without issue.

Jmo but I'd tend towards warning first in a similar situation as described in the OP. The next time that I was close to that bench I'd say sumthin' like "Coach, keep your bench quiet when the other team is shooting free throws." If they do it after that, hey, then it's on him and there's no way that he can now complain to you.

Of course, if you feel that the bench did disconcert the FT shooter the first time that they did it, you should call it immediately. You don't warn for something that has already affected the game.

Where's Nevadaref When You Need Him ...
 

Agree. Why can't I find it? Help.

It's 2005-2006 (I don't have a soft copy, sorry).

POE #2 in the 2001/02 rule book---"The committee emphasizes that disconcertion is a violation and may result in a substitute throw. If persistent or deemed unsporting, the TEAM/player may also be penalized with a technical foul."

I do. It's POE 2C. That one refers to "players" only though, which means the 5 legally on the court, by rule. The older POE referred to the whole team, which includes bench personnel by definition(rule 4-34-2 for BillyMac).

Same old problem. The only definitive answer to some of the questions asked here lie only in long-forgotten archives. They are still valid but a lot of officials aren't aware of them.

The Archives King ...
 

Especially young, inexperienced officials, who don't have access to, or realize the importance of, old rule books, and casebooks. Even if they did, they still wouldn't have access to old annual interpretations.

No need to worry, Nevadaref will be along in a few minutes to help us out. He'll find it. I guarantee it.

Say what?:confused:

I just cited the damn thing verbatim for you out of POE #2 in the 2001-02 rule book. See above.

Lah me.......

Please Calm Down ...
 

I was referring to a casebook play, annual interpretation, or Point of Emphasis, that specifically states that bench personnel can be called for a disconcertion violation. I believe that such a citation exists, but I just can't seem to put my finger on it. All I've got is a rule citation:

NFHS 9-1-3 After the ball is placed at the disposal of a free thrower:
c. No opponent shall disconcert the free thrower.

Thanks Jurassic. You're right - this is the one I referred to and it doesn't specifically mention the bench - just "opponents outside the arc."

C. Disconcertion. Free-throw disconcertion must be carefully monitored. Of particular concern is when the free throw will become dead (first of two or first two of three). Defensive players often employ tactics which serve no
other purpose than to disconcert the shooter during free throws (“boxing out” the free thrower off the free-throw line, waving arms, yelling instructions to teammates, etc.). Another increasing trend is opponents outside the arc saying things to the thrower. With team free-throw percentages hovering in the mid-60’s on average, teams welcome a second chance free throw. They deserve it if disconcertion occurs and officials must call it.

Sigh....

I gave you the relevant POE but you can't comprehend it.

Opponents are ALL members of the other team.

The POE on disconcertion that I cited above from 2001-02 said that a player OR a team can also be given a technical foul for disconcertion.

Read rule 4-34. A "player" is one of the 5 team members who are legally on the court at any given time. Ergo, according to that POE you can call a player for disconcertion, and you can also give the player a T" if the disconcertion is persistent or unsporting. Also according to 4-34, bench personnel are all individuals who are a part of or affiliated with the team(subs, coaches, managers, etc.). Ergo, also according to that POE you can call bench personnel for disconcertion and you can also give the team(bench personnel) a "T" if the disconcertion from the bench is persistent or unsporting. The POE deliberately cited BOTH the player AND the team, NOT just a player.

You have to connect the dots. That's exactly what the POE that I cited is telling you. There ain't anything else anywhere else and you don't need it anyway. That POE is definitive enough. And if you don't believe me, may I suggest that you take it to Jackie Loube or somebody and ask them. There's nothing more that I can do to explain it to you.

What A Lovely Dream ...
 

You don't have to explain it to me. I don't need convincing. Never needed it. Never will. I 100% understand your posts. I 100% agree with your posts. I 100% understand the rule. What's so difficult to understand about, "No opponent shall disconcert the free thrower."? I have called opponent bench personnel for disconcertion in recreation level games. However, for those that might not agree with us, that is, those that might have trouble "connecting the dots" of your citations (which has been me on a few occasions, but not this time), I could have sworn that there was a casebook play, or an annual interpretation, that specifically spelled out, as in A1, B6, etc., that disconcertation can be called on opponent bench personnel. Maybe I dreamed it?

I did in fact have the team as described in the OP, and they were up to the same shenanigans. As soon as the other team looked a bit distracted by it, I warned the coach, and it didn't happen again.

I was glad the warning worked just fine.

I wouldn't wait for the team to look distracted. Did you call disconcertion? If not, you allowed them to have a freebie. In this situation, I'd pregame it with my partner, and the first time they said anything they'd get warned. Their compliance tells me they're doing it on purpose, fully aware of what they're doing, and waiting for the official to stop them.

Frankly, I find it unethical coaching.

I used this last night in a BJV game. Worked like a charm. Pissed the kid off too. Life is good. :)