Foul after the last buzzer
 

Hi guys,

last Wednesday was watching a game I have seen a situation when the offensive player whose team was 1 point down went for a jump shot in the last second while the defensive player was desperate to get as close as he could get to put the shooter off his shot.

Well in my interpretation before the shooter landed back on the floor there was contact and the defensive player is responsible for the contact as he was out of his cilinder.

Despite the fact that the shooter released the ball before the buzzer the contact occurred after the buzzer sounded end of the game.

Should the ref have called the free throws? Should the ref ignore the foul as the contact occured after the game has finished?


thanks guys

C

What makes you think that the game was finished?
Where exactly was the ball when the contact occurred?

The ball was in the air when the contact occured.

Thanks

Shot And Possible Foul At Horn ???
 

The game's not "finished" until the officials leave the visual confines of the court, but in this case I think you are questioning whether, or not, to count the try if it goes in, or whether, or not, to charge the foul on the defender.

Regarding the word ignore. Dead ball contact should be ignored unless the contact is intentional or flagrant.

Regarding the shot, if the horn sounds when the ball is in the air on a try, the ball is still live until the try is good, or until it is definite that the try will not be good, assuming no basket interference, or goaltending.

Regarding the foul, if the player is an airborne shooter, the ball is live until the airborne shooter lands. It is up to the official to decide if such contact is illegal (advantage/disadvantage), or incidental. If it would have been a foul with one minute to go in the game, then it's a foul if there's one second to go in the game.

My question to esteemed members: Shooter becomes airborne, ball is released on a try, horn sounds after release, ball is blocked by defender into the bleachers, making it definite it will not go in, airborne shooter is then fouled, not intentional or flagrant, by a secondary defender before landing. What's the call? Is the ball dead when it is definite that the shot will not be successful, or does the ball remain live until the airborne shooter lands? Per my usual modus operandi, citation please.

shot-buzzer-foul
 

Thanks guys,

my question is regarding the foul.

The shooter was fouled before landing on the floor but after the final buzzer. ( shot-buzzer-foul)

BTW he missed the shot and his team lost by 1 point.

Really? The ball is dead when the try is certain to be unsuccessful.

THat has nothing to do with whether there was a personal foul on or by an ariborne shooter. 4-Fouls

1) You sure? That sounds like it might be a myth to me.:) The ball is dead when it either goes through the basket or it is certain that the try will not be good. Whether the shooter was airborne or not when the try is good/no good is irrelevant to the status of the ball.

2) That answers #2 also. The call is a personal foul on the airborne shooter. The illegal contact does not have to be intentional or flagrant. Whether the ball is dead or not is irrelevant also. The illegal contact just has to occur before the airborne shooter lands( one foot).

Rules 4-42-4, 6-7-6 & 6-7-7 + EXCEPTIONS a & c, 4-19-1 + NOTE. Per my usual modus operandi, why didn't you look the damn rules up yourself?

I appreciate your efforts guys but my question still remains unanswered.:)

Should the ref grant the free throws or should the ref call game over?

Still Confused In Connecticut ...
 

So the combination of the horn, followed by the certainty of the try being unsuccessful, causes the ball to become dead, so any contact on the airborne shooter, who has not yet landed, after this "combination" will be ignored unless intentional or flagrant?

Even if the horn sounded and the try was certain to be unsuccessful before the contact, said contact being before the landing?

I did. I was confused by the complicating factors of the live ball/dead ball/shot/horn/unsuccessful try issue and the airborne shooter/landing issue. I am still confused.

The Answer Has To Be In Here Somewhere ...
 

6-7: The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:
ART. 6 Time expires for a quarter or extra period (see exception a below).
ART. 7 A foul occurs (see exceptions a, b and c below).
EXCEPTION: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends, or until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when:
a. Article 5, 6, or 7 occurs while a try or tap for a field goal is in flight.
c. Article 7 occurs by any opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal (is in the act of shooting) before the foul occurred, provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight.

I think that this citation has everything that I need; time expires, foul occurs, try in flight, airborne shooter, returns to floor. I just need to think my way around the several "or's" to fully understand it. Help would be appreciated.

Here's the situation again, with my notes in parentheses: Shooter becomes airborne, ball is released on a try, horn sounds after release (horn doesn't end period because ball is still in flight), ball is blocked by defender into the bleachers, making it definite it will not go in (one definition of the end of a try, since ball is not in flight anymore, maybe the period ends here), airborne shooter is then fouled, not intentional or flagrant, by a secondary defender before landing (the before landing makes this a player in the act of shooting, so maybe the period doesn't end until the player lands).

There must be a simple answer to this just staring me in the face? I must be over-complicating this. Does the horn and certainty of an unsuccessful try end the period, or does the period not end until the airborne shooter lands?

When does the damn period end? Someone please put me out of my misery. I wish I had never brought this up and had just answered christianH's question.

Hi Billymac,

If you were under FIBA rules I think the answer would be :D:

On Referees Duties and Powers:

Art 46.13 - ( in bold! )Have the power to make decisions on any point not specifically covered by these rules.

But maybe I am being just lazy.

This Is Covered, Somewhere ...
 

Thanks. Nice try. But this situation is definitely covered by the rules. I'm just having trouble navigating my way through them.

The EXCEPTION above answers it, Billy. The ball does not become dead until the airborne shooter returns to the floor.

So, to answer the OP, the official could call a foul after the horn but while the ball was in the air and/or until the airborne shooter returns to the ground. But, the official will have to determine the contact was actually a foul. I have no idea if a foul should have been called in your scenario.

Devil's Advocate ...
 

Sounds good, I would love to agree with you, but: The ball does not become dead until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when: Article 5, 6, or 7 occurs while a try or tap for a field goal is in flight.

4-41: The try ends when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful.

The try ended, we've got a non try heading out of bounds, before the contact, and before the airborne shooter lands, so the exception can't be used here? I think? This is giving me a headache.

Not even close. You can have a "normal" (not "common") PF on an airborne shooter after the ball becomes dead. I gave you the reference before.

Would (or should) the ref have "granted the FTs" if the same contact occurred on the same shot earlier in the game?

The fact that the horn has sounded should have no bearing on this particular call.

He Asked Respectfully And Politely ...
 

Even when the horn has sounded to end the period and the try is no longer in flight? Please note that this is a polite question, not a sarcastic statement.

Also, in my opinion, I believe that, in the absence of an intentional or flagrant act, a foul can be called up until the airborne shooter gets at least one foot on the floor, but that's an opinion based on common sense, because ...

I'm still confused by this wording: The ball does not become dead until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when: Article 5, 6, or 7 occurs while a try or tap for a field goal is in flight. I'm confused because the try ended when it was certain that the try was unsuccessful, ergo, no try, no exception.

(Ergo? Where did that come from? I've been reading too many of mbyron's posts.)

Mere contact does not mean there is a foul. The definition of a foul says it is contact "which hinders an opponent from performing normal defensive and offensive movements." Part of the definition of incidental contact states, "contact which does not hinder the opponent from participating in normal defensive or offensive movements should be considered incidental."

More oftent than not, the contact made in this situation (after the shot is released) is considered incidental because it had no bearing on the shot.

The other thing we look for is protecting the shooter from being undercut by a defender before he lands. If the defensive contact endangers the shooter's landing, then it could likely be a foul. As bob pointed out, the horn is irrelevant as long as the ball is either live or the shooter is airborne.

Does this answer your question?

Am I Invisible Or Something ???
 

Hey? What about my question? Are you ignoring me?

Sorry, Billy, I was taking it back to the OP. My 9 year old is begging for the laptop now, so I'll have to get back with you. i thought Bob took care of you, though.

Yes.

Ergo ???
 

Thanks, that's the way I would call it, but can you please explain my "Ergo" (no try, no exception).

Billy, look at rule 4-19-1 and the note. It says "a personal foul also includes contact by or ON an airborne shooter when the ball is DEAD". The NOTE says that " Contact AFTER the ball has become DEAD is ignored UNLESS it is ruled intentional or flagrant OR is committed by or ON an airborne shooter."

Clear out the excess verbiage and that reads "Contact after the ball has become dead is ignored unless it is committed on an airborne shooter".

That's what both Bob and I have been trying to explain to you.

Ball dead---> contact on airborne shooter = a normal personal foul(of the shooting variety).

The period doesn't end until the play is over. The play is over when the airborne player lands. The period now ends after the fouled player shoots his FT's because the foul on the airborne player was considered part of the previous period.

4-19-1 And Note Does The Trick For Me ...
 

Bingo. Thanks. And thanks for your patience. When bob jenkins, and Jurassic Referee, speak, everybody listens. (Apologies to E.F Hutton)
(Jurassic Referee: I thought you were dead?)

I am. I'm too dumb to lay down though.

"You'll Feel The Awful Creepy Crawly Terror" ...
 

Oh, I get it:

IMDb Video: The Mummy (1932)

Thanks guys for your help.

I'm dumber for having read this thread!.:D