When is a sub legal?
 

I've been trying to find it in the rulebook. I find several cites that mention a "legal substitute" but I haven't found precise wording that says when a sub is legal.

Thanks in advance.

Rita

The substitution process is outlined in 3-3. A substitute makes legal entry into the court only after being beckoned by an official.

When they are beckon onto the court by officials.

Or if the sub enters illegally and undetected, s/he is legal when the ball becomes live.

Just for the sake of conversation, if we are doing decent dead ball officiating we could prevent the illegal or undetected entrance correct? 25% of the time.

But it doesn't really SAY that in 3-3, does it?

The reason I ask is a situation I saw in a Varsity girls game the other night.

There had been a foul and the shooter had shot the first of two free throws when it was noticed that she was bleeding. The administering official called to the bench for a substitute. A player entered the court without stopping in front of the table and was called back by her coach who then inserted another player. (Who also did not stop in front of the table) The "beckoning signal" was not used for either player.

So, without the beckoning signal, the player becomes the substitute when the ball is administered to her at the free throw line?

Rita

If This Had Been A Real Emergency ...
 

Rita C: This is not a hijack, but a slight detour. I hope that you don't mind.

Girls varsity. Team A is getting clobbered by Team B. One player on Team A stands out, a freshman point guard, who is, by far, the best player on the court for both teams. Scoring, assists, and several steals. She plays the entire game with a band aid on her upper arm, that on a few occasions starts to peel off, but she keeps on getting it re-taped during timeouts, and intermissions. Late in the game, her team is twenty points behind, and she has played every minute up until that point. With 1:30 left in the game, I note that she is no longer wearing a band aid, and I think, but I'm not sure, that there is a very small, wet looking, red, open wound on the upper arm where the band aid was throughout the game. At this point, everything is in transition, and I figure that, since I'm not sure, maybe the clock will run out and I can get out of Dodge. Of course that doesn't happen, a foul is called, and while lining up for free throws, I can't help but notice that there is a very small amount of wet blood on her upper arm. The Team A coach is right there, so I tell him that we will need a substitute for his bleeding player. He looks at me like I'm from Mars, or something, so I offer that he can also take a timeout to keep her in the game, never thinking that, down twenty points, with 0:30 left, he would continue to play someone who has just played 31:30, with lots of eligible substitutes on the bench. You guessed it, he took the timeout, and kept her in for the remaining 0:30. Once you think that you've got coaches figured out, you realize that there's no figuring out coaches.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled program. Thank you for your patience.

If the official watched the sub come in, and, by his/her actions "allowed" it, then I'd say the sub was a player at that time.

You play 7.5 minute quarters? 15 minute halves? 10 minute thirds?

My point is, there really isn't anything in the rulebook that says there is a definitive point in time the player becomes a legal substitute.

Rita

Someday I'll Buy One Of Those New Fangled Calculators ...
 

Sorry. Good catch. You've got a sharp eye for details. Fixed it. Thanks. My slide rule doesn't add or subtract, it just does everything else. Ten minute thirds? Good one.

It seems to me that 3-3 says it quite clearly: "The substitute shall remain outside the boundary until an official beckons, whereupon he/she shall enter immediately."

It seems the game officials messed up a couple of times then. They should have made the subs go to the table and beckoned them (although when a sub is able to come into the game immediately, my beckon is usually very subtle).

Also, if the free thrower is able to shoot her free throws, but is bleeding...shouldn't the lane be cleared, the bleeder allowed to take her free throws, a sub be made immediately following the final free throw, and play resumed with either an end line throw-in or a AP throw-in? Isn't there a case play very much like this involving a player with an untucked jersey?

Au Contraire Mon Ami ...
 

There isn't?

3-3-3: A substitute becomes a player when he/she legally enters the court.
If entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live.
A player becomes bench personnel after his/her substitute becomes a player or
after notification of the coach following his/her disqualification.

Bleeding Hearts ...
 

Yes, but first she has to put on this biohazard suit:

http://thm-a02.yimg.com/image/ac2e1287dabce538

I was under the impression in NFHS when it is discovered that a player have blood on their person or bleeding he/she must be removed immediately.

Correct as per NFHS case book play 3.3.7SitB(b). The player must leave as soon as the bleeding is observed.

Apples and oranges. The uniform violation is casebook play 3.3.5. The bleeding play is casebook play 3.3.7SitB(b).

Different rules for different situations.

Get With The Program ...
 

What? Then I guess that the NFHS hasn't heard about biohazard suits?

Like the shot clock
 

It's a budget thing, billy. Besides, biohazard suits are hard to get within uniform standards.

Maybe The NFHS Needs To Join The 21st Century ...
 

No problem. Numbers front and back. No mascots. White home suit. Dark road suit. No 0 and 00. No identical numbers. No numerals above five.

Like the cheesy superhero movie
 

Have you priced them? Expensive at half the price.

Fair enough.

BTW, I'll take an apple and an orange. I need some healthy snacks after the past few days. :)

When do they "legally enter" the court? What is the definition of that?

That's my point.

Rita

AFAIK there is no definition of that specifically. However, "The substitute shall remain outside the boundary until an official beckons, whereupon he/she shall enter immediately." Which I take to mean that the "enter" part of "legally enter" means to cross over the boundary line onto the court. The "legal" part requires the official to beckon the substitute. So I understand "legally enter" to mean waiting until the official beckons, then stepping onto the court.

However, it's pretty commonplace that subs do not get beckoned, but are ... recognized? by the official and allowed to enter with his/her consent. Example, you've got two subs waiting at the table. At the next whistle, the official brings the subs in. While that official is holding his partner off, waiting for the replaced players to leave the floor, another sub checks in and comes onto the floor. The official sees the sub enter, and does not beckon but continues holding his/her partner off until the additional substitution is completed. The additional sub was not beckoned, but I'd say the player legally entered the game.

That probably just complicates the attempt to define "legally enter", but it's common practice.

Thank you.

Rita

A slight different take or at least I didn't see a post aiming in this direction.

Some of the references to a "legal substitute" might be refering to a player who eligible to be a sub.

In my size: $845 for Tychem. 9BB-37703 http://www.labsafety.com/search/tych...nder/24537728/

Way Too Much Time On Your Hands ...
 

Vacation, unemployed, independently wealthy, bored, retired, or don't have a life. Which one is it? Unfortunately, for me, it's the last one.

No, no, not even close, yes, no, no. It's just that for once, I actually had specific knowledge / dare I say expertise on something being discussed here.

Not to hijack the thread, but this happened in our game this week, 4.4 seconds left in the game, Team A leads Team B by 3 points. Team B calls a timeout. At the the conclusion of the timeout Team B sends a player onto the court who has never been in the game and has not reported at the scorer's table. Does s/he become a legal substituion when the ball is inbounded?

Situation:

Player A1 is fouled and shooting 2 FT's. Four players from A's bench go to the table for substitution. After the first free throw the four players are beckoned onto the floor and replace all other A players except A1. After A1 has the ball at his disposal for the second free throw, A coach sends another bench player to the table for substitution. A1 makes the free throw.

Do you beckon the player at the table onto the court? Do you find out who that player is replacing before beckoning?

Just wondering what sort of protocol should be used in this situation.

Yes.

Yes. No. The same "protocol" you use on any other sub. The last sub in the sequence presented can replace any player from that team -- not just A1.

No time went off the clock, so how can any of the other A players be replaced?

Umm.. by having a sub come in for them. There's no requirement for a sub to play a certain period of time.

Ok, I'm confusing a rule regarding the same player returning to the game. Thanks

Maybe even a little..
 

...sooner. If entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live. So, on a throw-in the ball becomes live when...

You don't mention ....
 

... a replaced player coming back in. If A1 was substituted for, say by A6, then A1 has to sit until the clock starts. That doesn't mean that A7 can't come in for A6, and then A8 for A7, and A9 for A8... all during the same stoppage.

"Must sit a tick; need not play a tick."

Playing With Five Trumps Sitting A Tick ...
 

Exceptions for injuries or disqualifications when a team has only five eligible players.

Reminds me of the disclaimers on TV commercials.

"May cause blindness."

Or erections that last 4 hours!