Funny Vid / Palming-Carrying?
 

Besides the fantastic sound effects and expert instruction, are you of the opinion that the moves he performs with the 2 chairs is a palming violation?


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didn't watch it, but since there aren't two chairs on the floor at most of my games, I don't think I'll have to worry about it.

What's the definition of palming?

Perspective
 

At least since Bobby Knight retired.

Unless Bobby Knight is coaching....Oh, never mind, you said TWO chairs....:D

Come on - be fair! That was only 1 chair :D

On a serious note, I do not see a palming violation. The hand is on top and high, but that is not what I would classify as a violation. Oh well. ;)

Peace

Thanks, that's kind of what I was thinking, but the ball does seem to come to rest, in a strange way, with his hand somewhat at the side of the ball. It just looked so awkward (which doesn't mean it's illegal) that I thought I'd see other opinions.

What Rut said.

Never mind the palming. Wouldn't this be a travel?. He takes several steps after crossing over before dribbling again

Fundamental of basketball... you can NOT travel while dribbling.

What BBall_Junkie said. :D

Peace

True, however you could make the argument that the dribble ended, then he took steps, therefore making it a travel.

No way I'm allowing that play in one of my games. Have to imagine that some sort of unfair advantage would be gained there.

You'll need to review the rules about what ends a dribble. Hint, the number of steps taken between dribbles isn't part of the equation; otherwise you'd need to call a travel on most fast breaks.

You need to determine whether the ball came to rest in his hand (that's what ends a dribble). If it did, you can call palming or traveling or illegal dribble. If not (and that's the general opinion here), it's play on. You might want to give the former defender time to find his shoes, though.

I guess I'm in the minority then because I do think the ball comes to rest in his hand. I would call traveling here.

Just because the ball comes up high does not mean a palm or carry. For a carry the ball has to come to rest in your hand - there is no height restriction on how high you can bounce a ball. players can still be dribbling the ball with it bouncing up as high as they can reach upwards, as long as the player does not let it come to rest in his hands. Also, as mentioned earlier there is no restriction of how many steps you can and cannot take while dribbling.

I would venture to say that you're in the minority because you are not calling it by the rulebook...

The upward force of the ball (due to the hard dribble preceding it) makes it appear as if the ball has come to rest in his hand, but it's not the case, IMO.
It's just a high dribble, perfectly legal in spite of what you hear from the fans.

Explain to me how a ball can come to rest in a hand when the hand is not under the ball....

Call a travel here, be prepared to call a Tech on the coach and be prepared to discuss this with your partners who have to be on the floor with you.

Just because plays look odd/strange/etc does not make them illegal.

There is nothing unfair unless the rules are violated. My point is that it does not look like the dribble ends. You cannot call it a violation if nothing illegal is done. It is only a violation if the ball comes to rest in the hand of the dribbler and it does not look like that is at all possible with the hand on top of the ball. And like others have said, you need to review the rules on this one. You seem to be saying it is illegal simply because you do not like the action. That is not why we call violations or fouls. We have to have some rules basis for those calls. And this looks very suspect to call a violation. And if you nitpick it too, you better call every little "looks funny" action or dribble.

Peace

You cannot call a travel when a player is dribbling. That is impossible under the rules. If you said it was a carry/palming, I could at least go there with you on some level because that is a judgment issue. Just understand that you will be judged by your judgment to make these calls. It is much worse to call something that is not supported by rule at all.

And you do not have brand new officials saying this to you. Take me out of this, these are pretty veteran and experienced officials saying you are not using the proper rules on this.

Peace

Being 6'6" and having a huge hand...uhh, that would be palming the ball (i.e. using the upward force of the ball from the dribble to palm/grab the ball and control it) Get the idea? so, I can take a ball, dribble it and catch it in one hand without putting my hand underneath it... then I can move it laterally/horizontally as I wish... That would be a carry or end of dribble without putting my hand under the ball, as the ball has come to rest in my hand :)

I'm not sure what you're saying here. If your hand is large enough that you can grip the ball from above, and you do so, that is illegal. But merely using the upward force of the ball pressing against the hand to control it, not illegal.

good point... i was using the video of as an example and that kid is not "palming" the ball but point taken.

My original point still stands though... just cuz it looks odd does not make it illegal... the move in the video is legal and is not a violation.

I edited and added clarity... I agree with you to a point. gripping the ball from the top while dribbling would be illegal IF you resumed dribbling. Simply performing that action to stop your dribble is not illegal (but I think you meant that, so we're on the same page)

fundamental of physics. Everything comes to a rest for a very very short time when changing directions 180 degrees. So you are correct to say the ball does stop and come to a rest, but it is for a very short time (hundredths of a second maybe). Not enough to call traveling, palming, etc.

There's a difference between coming to a momentary inertial rest and actually coming to rest "in the hand." This wording implies the hand must be somehow suspending the ball in the air; either by palming (holding) it or sitting underneath it.

At the 1:31 mark of the video, in my opinion, the player causes the ball to come to rest in his hand, which as we all know ends the dribble. He then takes several steps, then dribbles again. That's where I'm getting the traveling call instead of a carry or double dribble.

That's just my judgement, my opinion.

Carry/palming is, essentially, either a travel or a double dribble.

Does his hand get under the ball? Does he grasp it from above ("palming" it)? I didn't see either of those, so I'm not sure how you're seeing it. You're right, though, it's judgment.

Yes it is. But it helps when you can convince more than yourself that you made the right call. And I am all for calling palming/carrying, I make more of these calls than most. But I do not call them with a hand on top or not on the side of the ball at least. I did not see what you are seeing.

Peace

Note the wording in 4-15. For the sake of this argument there are two separate ways the dribble can end.

4-15-1

a. .....catches or causes the ball to come to rest in one or both hands.


b. ....palms/carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or both hands.


I don't see where a could apply here. Not so sure about b. How long is too long? This guy goes basically all the way across the lane with the ball resting in his hand. Not saying I would or wouldn't call it, but I certainly think it is a legitimate point to ponder. If this guy had demonstrated the same move while adding a spin, I think a lot of us would call a violation.

I think this is a very legitimate point. The problem is based on the descriptions that were shown of these kinds of plays show the hand being under or on the side of the ball (and moving it across the dribblers body). This did not look that way at all in my opinion. But it is something to think about as we need to often find the line of what we are going to allow. But this can never be traveling as suggested. It is only palming/carrying/double dribble violation if the player violated.

Peace

The video quality isn't exactly HD, so maybe my eyes are deceiving me, but as I envision this play in a game, as I've said before, it seems to me that whatever he does would garner him a distinct advantage over the defender. To me, that advantage doesn't come from his athletic ability here.

I disagree that it "couldn't" be traveling. If he, for example, takes about 6 steps with the ball resting in his hand and never re-dribbles, it's traveling. Before the palming/carrying rule was adopted a few years ago, the call would have had to either be traveling or double dribble. Usually, it was DD, but occasionally traveling would be the proper call as it happened first.

You're right, the move provides an advantage, but that's not necessarily wrong. There are two questions to ask:
1. Is he breaking the rule? I don't think so.
2. Is he taking advantage of some loophole to gain an unintended advantage? To me, this answer is even easier than the first; No.

If you're going to call this because he takes too many steps between dribbles, I'll say it again, you're going to have to call a lot of point guards for traveling on fast breaks. They'll have their hand on the ball for the same amount of time as this guy, and they're running while they do it.

Is this Spanish or did we tap the egg nog keg early? :D

No, Portuguese. :D

"Pecs"

Without a doubt the play you describe makes the violation, if called, more obvious. But to reiterate the point, the position of the hand on the ball is not mentioned anywhere in the dribble rule. Conceivably, especially with a tall player, a high dribble with the hand in the 12 o'clock position could easily result in longer contact than a small player making a quick crossover move with the hand in the 3 or 4 o'clock position.

Like some others, even though not written, advantage gained is often a factor in making this call.

I agree it is not written. But when it is not written, then you can use other literature used. And there have been examples shown by the NF in their Simplified and Illustrated Rulebook and used in PowerPoint slides. If they are not showing a carry/palming with the hand on top, then I think it is safe to say they are not considering this action to be illegal. The one picture that they use over and over again is the one with the hand under the ball. I just think it would be highly technical to call it a violation and the player clearly had their hand on top.

Peace

I've rescinded the traveling argument. I would call a violation because to me, as I said, the ball comes to rest in his hand.

One situation in which I have made this call is when the players makes contact with the ball early and maintains this contact for an extended period while the ball travels upward, then continues this contact while making a significant directional change. All this can be done with the hand location
on/near the top of the ball.

And who said Dan Cortese from MTV fame didn't have a career after his 15 min of fame?


On the vid, gotta leave it alone by rule fellas....UGLY but NO violation.

Got nuthin'
 

being of the opinion that the palm/carry is ignored far too often, I was fully prepared to find a violation here and I did not.

In the real world, he's not gonna be able to dribble the ball that high in traffic. To make the direction changes made here during what we used to call a "city dribble" would probably result in a carry. But he didn't do it here.

Them there chairs played lousy defense and I'm not giving them the ball.

4.15.4 SITUATION B: A1, while advancing the ball by dribbling, manages to
keep a hand in contact with the ball until it reaches its maximum height. A1 maintains
such contact as the ball descends, pushing it to the floor at the last moment;
however, after six or seven bounces, A1’s hand is in contact with the ball and the
palm of the hand on this particular dribble is skyward so that the ball is resting
on top of the hand. RULING: The dribble has ended and a violation occurs if A1
dribbles again. The dribble ended when the ball came to rest in the palm of A1’s
hand. (9-5)