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referee99 Sun Dec 20, 2009 04:45pm
Leaving Bench when fight may break out.
 
Gents,

Just trying to firm up my understanding of the penalties for players leaving the bench when a fight may break out, NFHS rules.

Sitch:
2nd half is about to start with throw in by Team B.
A1 and B1 do a double shove near division line,
A6, A7, A8, A9, & A10 come rushing in.
B6, B7, B8 come rushing in.

No fight. Indirects from actions of bench personnel cause coaches to both be ejected.
Intentional technicals on A1 & B1 for dead ball fouls.
Flagrant player technicals on the 8 who came on the court. All 8 team members from the bench are disqualified.
Differential from the two groups off the bench is a max of 2 free-throws. Team B will have 2 free-throws with the lane cleared and the ball for throw-in at the division line opposite the table. Team B keeps the arrow for A/P throw-in.
Team fouls for the half are now Team A: 6, and Team B: 4.

Just looking for confirmation that the penalty for team members leaving the bench when a fight may break out are flagrant player technicals and that each results in a team foul.

Do I have it right?

tjones1 Sun Dec 20, 2009 04:54pm
You are close...

The coaches aren't ejected from this sitch. Each is only charged one indirect since the subs didn't become involved in the fight (leaving the bench).

A1 and B1 are charged as you say and they cancel out.

B gets <s>4</s> 2 free throws.

B gets the ball for throw-in and the AP doesn't change.

Check out 10.4.5 Situation A

sseltser Sun Dec 20, 2009 05:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjones1 (Post 644360)
B gets 4 free throws since Team A had two more players than B (the others cancel out).
I believe the OP is right about 2 FTs max for non-participants off the bench.

tjones1 Sun Dec 20, 2009 05:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sseltser (Post 644361)
I believe the OP is right about 2 FTs max for non-participants off the bench.
The number coming off the bench in the case play are equal.

It says the following:

No free throws are awarded for the simultaneous technical fouls as the number of bench personnel leaving the bench and the penalties are the same for both teams.

I think 10.4.5 Situation D supports my answer too... maybe not.

Edit: Eh, the maybe not may be right.. 10.4.5 Situation F says something different. I guess I'm not sure now..

CMHCoachNRef Sun Dec 20, 2009 05:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by referee99 (Post 644359)
Gents,

Just trying to firm up my understanding of the penalties for players leaving the bench when a fight may break out, NFHS rules.

Sitch:
2nd half is about to start with throw in by Team B.
A1 and B1 do a double shove near division line,
A6, A7, A8, A9, & A10 come rushing in.
B6, B7, B8 come rushing in.

No fight. Indirects from actions of bench personnel cause coaches to both be ejected.
Intentional technicals on A1 & B1 for dead ball fouls.
Flagrant player technicals on the 8 who came on the court. All 8 team members from the bench are disqualified.
Differential from the two groups off the bench is a max of 2 free-throws. Team B will have 2 free-throws with the lane cleared and the ball for throw-in at the division line opposite the table. Team B keeps the arrow for A/P throw-in.
Team fouls for the half are now Team A: 6, and Team B: 4.

Just looking for confirmation that the penalty for team members leaving the bench when a fight may break out are flagrant player technicals and that each results in a team foul.

Do I have it right?
Referee99,
You will find your answer, I believe, in the following:

Rule 10-4-5 2009-10 NFHS Basketball Rules Page 60
SECTION 4 BENCH TECHNICAL
ART. 5 . . . Leave the confines of the bench during a fight or when a fight may break out.
NOTE: The head coach may enter the court only if beckoned by an official.
PENALTY: (Art. 5) Flagrant foul, disqualification of individual offender, but
only one technical-foul penalty is administered regardless of the number of
offenders. This one foul is also charged indirectly to the head coach. If the
head coach is an offender, an additional flagrant technical foul is charged
directly to the coach and penalized. When a simultaneous technical foul(s) by
opponents occurs, the free throws are not awarded when the penalties offset.

Add to that...
SIMULTANEOUS TECHNICALS BY OPPONENTS
10.4.5 SITUATION D: A1 and B1 begin to fight during a dead-ball period. Two
substitutes from Team A and one from Team B leave their bench area and enter
the court to be near the action. RULING: A1, B1 and the three substitutes are all
disqualified and each is charged with a flagrant technical foul. Each coach is also
charged indirectly with a technical foul. No free throws are awarded for the double
technical foul by A1 and B1. The free throws for one substitute' foul by each
team are canceled as the penalties offset. However, Team B is awarded two free
throws and the ball for a division-line throw-in opposite the table for the second
substitute' foul, which does not have a corresponding simultaneous technical
foul by an opponent.

Coaches each get an indirect. Two free throws to Team B. Team fouls are correct. 6 team fouls to 4.

tjones1 Sun Dec 20, 2009 05:39pm
Re:

After reviewing some notes I believe you folks are correct. 2 throws in the situation from the OP.

Nice catch, and good review.

Nevadaref Sun Dec 20, 2009 06:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by referee99 (Post 644359)
Gents,

Just trying to firm up my understanding of the penalties for players leaving the bench when a fight may break out, NFHS rules.

Sitch:
2nd half is about to start with throw in by Team B.
A1 and B1 do a double shove near division line,
A6, A7, A8, A9, & A10 come rushing in.
B6, B7, B8 come rushing in.

No fight. Indirects from actions of bench personnel cause coaches to both be ejected.
Intentional technicals on A1 & B1 for dead ball fouls.
Flagrant player technicals on the 8 who came on the court. All 8 team members from the bench are disqualified.
Differential from the two groups off the bench is a max of 2 free-throws. Team B will have 2 free-throws with the lane cleared and the ball for throw-in at the division line opposite the table. Team B keeps the arrow for A/P throw-in.
Team fouls for the half are now Team A: 6, and Team B: 4.

Just looking for confirmation that the penalty for team members leaving the bench when a fight may break out are flagrant player technicals and that each results in a team foul.

Do I have it right?
Everything except for the number of indirects to the Head Coaches. Each should only receive a single one.

Yes, the technical fouls by the team members leaving the bench are flagrant and each one counts toward the team foul count under NFHS rules.

representing Sun Dec 20, 2009 07:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 644375)
Everything except for the number of indirects to the Head Coaches. Each should only receive a single one.

Yes, the technical fouls by the team members leaving the bench are flagrant and each one counts toward the team foul count under NFHS rules.
What if they are involved in a fight? Then does the HC get 1 indirect T for every player involved, and one T for them leaving?

For example:

A1 and B1 are fighting on court. A6-A10 and B6-B8 comes onto the court.

A6, A7 get involved with fight, B6, B7 and B8 get involved. A8, A9 and A10 do not participate in fight but stand there watching while on the court.

bob jenkins Sun Dec 20, 2009 07:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by representing (Post 644383)
What if they are involved in a fight? Then does the HC get 1 indirect T for every player involved, and one T for them leaving?
The coach gets one indirect for each who particiaptates, and one more for all who leave but don't participate.

tjones1 Sun Dec 20, 2009 07:37pm
Therefore, in your situation, both coaches would be ejected.

Coach A:
1 indirect for A6 participating
1 indirect for A7 participating
1 indirect for A8, A9, and A10 leaving the bench

Coach B:
1 indirect for B6 participating
1 indirect for B7 participating
1 indirect for B8 participating

So:
A1, A6, A7, A8, A9, A10, B1, B6, B7, B8, Coach A, and Coach B are all done for the game.

Nevadaref Sun Dec 20, 2009 07:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by representing (Post 644383)
What if they are involved in a fight? Then does the HC get 1 indirect T for every player involved, and one T for them leaving?
It would be one indirect T for each team member who engaged in the fight. If there were other team members who left the bench, but did not join the fray, then another indirect would be assessed for all of them. However, if only two leave and both become involved, then it is only two indirects, not three (as there wouldn't be one for both of them leaving the bench).

Quote:
Originally Posted by representing (Post 644383)
For example:

A1 and B1 are fighting on court. A6-A10 and B6-B8 comes onto the court.

A6, A7 get involved with fight, B6, B7 and B8 get involved. A8, A9 and A10 do not participate in fight but stand there watching while on the court.
1. Double flagrant foul on A1 and B1, both disqualified, no FTs. One team foul for each side. (Personal or Technical determined by whether the action took place during a live or dead ball.)

2. Two from Team A leave and fight, Three from Team B leave and fight: each receives a flagrant technical foul and is disqualified. Two team fouls against Team A, three against Team B. Head Coach for Team A receives two indirects. Head Coach for Team B receives three indirects and is DQ'd. Team A would be due two FTs as Team B had one extra fighter.

3. Two members from Team A left the bench, but did not become involved. Each receives a flagrant technical foul and is disqualified. Two team fouls against Team A. Head Coach for Team A receives one indirect T for the actions of these two team members, when combined with the two indirects received in section 2 this gives him three and equals a disqualification. Team B would be due only two FTs as neither team member from Team A was a fighter.

4. Cancel the 2FTs for Team A from part 2 with the 2FTs for Team B from part 3 and resume at the POI, per Case Book rulings listed under 10.4.5.

representing Sun Dec 20, 2009 07:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 644394)
It would be one indirect T for each team member who engaged in the fight. If there were other team members who left the bench, but did not join the fray, then another indirect would be assessed for all of them. However, if only two leave and both become involved, then it is only two indirects, not three (as there wouldn't be one for both of them leaving the bench).


1. Double flagrant foul on A1 and B1, both disqualified, no FTs. One team foul for each side. (Personal or Technical determined by whether the action took place during a live or dead ball.)

2. Two from Team A leave and fight, Three from Team B leave and fight: each receives a flagrant technical foul and is disqualified. Two team fouls against Team A, three against Team B. Head Coach for Team A receives two indirects. Head Coach for Team B receives three indirects and is DQ'd. Team A would be due two FTs as Team B had one extra fighter.

3. Two members from Team A left the bench, but did not become involved. Each receives a flagrant technical foul and is disqualified. Two team fouls against Team A. Head Coach for Team A receives one indirect T for the actions of these two team members, when combined with the two indirects received in section 2 this gives him three and equals a disqualification. Team B would be due only two FTs as neither team member from Team A was a fighter.

4. Cancel the 2FTs for Team A from part 2 with the 2FTs for Team B from part 3 and resume at the POI, per Case Book rulings listed under 10.4.5.
Thanks Nevada. I have no intention of having the FT cancel out in this explanation, I was just making up numbers as I went. It's pretty coincidental that the FTs did cancel out in the end. Thanks for the explanation, I appreciate it.


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