Question about player and 4 quarters per night...
 

If the rule is a player may participate in four quarters total per night, regardless of level (varsity, jv, etc.), can he/she participate in an overtime should the game go into OT? I'm assuming that if the player had already burned their four quarters prior to the fourth quarter or OT of a varsity contest, this would not be allowed?! If however, the player was a participant in the fourth quarter, would you treat the OT's like an extension of the fourth quarter and would the player be allowed to participate? I know this is really not a decision that officials are responsible for making, but I was asked this question by one of our coaches at the high school I teach at, so I'm asking you guys, the experts. Thanks.

Pirate

We have no idea about whatever regulations certain states or areas place upon their local players.
However, I would think that it would be downright silly to prevent anyone from participating in an extra period because of such a rule.

That's a decision for your state association. I would guess, however, that since the rule book declares that all OTs are an extension of the 4th quarter, the participation rules would consider it the same.

It's not our responsibility to enforce the quarter rule, but we still must know about it enough to explain it.

You're right that OT is an extension of the 4th quarter. For small schools, I often see the V coach keep a quarter for a JV player until the 4th quarter in case other players foul out or the game goes to OT.

Occasionally, I'll have an assistant coach ask prior to the start of OT if the JV player can play in OT. I better be able to give him the correct answer.

Really? I've never been asked this question, and if I was, I would defer. It is not our responsibility in any way. No way I'm going to tell a coach who can and can't play based on eligibility; if I give the wrong advice, I'll cost him a forfeit.

It is the coach's responsibility to know these rules inside out.

I agree. In my area conferences may have rules that are more strict than the State Association. These same conferences have different rules for JH and MS games. There is no way that I would even try to keep them all straight.

Amen to that. The first thing we ask when we get to a MS/JHS game is: "do you have any special rules we need to be aware of - or are we just doing NFHS with state adaptations?"

Is that your association's policy? Is it posted on the state website?

There's knowing the rule. And there's probing the officials to see what you can get away with. Very different animals. ;)

This is not in the rulebook, this must be a state or local rule you are thinking of. I've done JV games where a player would play all 4 quarters, and then in the Varsity game they would play at least 2 quarters.

The only way I could answer this for you is to say that any over time periods are an extension of the 4th quarter. If it were me, that player would be allowed to play.

Official policy---no. But it's a credibility factor. My response may simply be "OT is an extension of the 4th quarter."

I'll always preface a question about quarters with "it's not my jurisdiction but my understanding is...."

I don't want to be the jerk who is unhelpful. Yes, coaches should know the rules, but they expect that I know the rules as well.

Same for players who have been tossed from a game. It's not my place to tell a coach a player can or cannot play the next game. (State Association requires 1 game suspension.) I'll state that I'm not in a position to make the determination for the coach, but the general principle is to sit a game. I encourage the coach to talk with his her AD and the state association to be sure.

Had a similar situation several years ago. Upon asking the state clinician, he said that is out of the officials jurisdiction as we do not rule on eligibility issues. If the opposing coach wants to play a player the entire junior varsity and varsity, that is up to them. The official has no responsibility here. However it would be the opposing teams responsibility to report to the state and file a complaint.
Sorry I have no rulebook citation for this.

Just so we're clear, I'm talking about a JV player who played in the 4th quarter (which means he's a Varsity player too).

In Kansas several years ago, we were instructed not to tell coaches the eligibility rules. We weren't expected to track eligibility, and a player who had used all available quarters of play could still play in the game - it just counted as an additional game played and would hinder his ability to play in another game that season.

As officials, having any sort of discussion - especially one where "well, I'm not sure but I think he's okay to play" is bad news. If we're wrong, then we've potentially contributed to costing a player a game of eligibility. The coach will certainly use the "but the official told me it was okay" excuse to his admin/the state. And then the official will be getting a call about "why did you do that?"

We were instructed to say, when asked, something like, "Coach, we aren't given instruction in the rules on eligibility, and we don't enforce those rules, either. You'll have to ask your AD. Sorry we can't help."

Can you imagine the chaos if the OT were counted as a separate quarter? Both teams may have to change their entire line up, putting in scrubs to finish the game because the starters have already played 4 quarters. The only answer that makes any sense (at least in my feeble mind) is that OT is an extension of the fourth quarter and the same "eligibility" that existed to start the fourth quarter still applies.

We've had some confusion this year since schools are allowed to experiment with halves. I haven't had to deal with the questions but did talk to an Assignor last night who gave a strong reminder that a half counts for 2 quarters.

More than 1 coach has been upset that he saved only 1 quarter for a JV player.

In this case, the assignor encouraged us to remind coaches that a half counts as 2 quarters.

This is the Massachusetts rule:

66.7.2 No member of a high school basketball squad shall participate in
more than four quarters per day. (This does not include official
over-time periods.)

I had a varsity coach ask me this week if a player who fouled out in the JV game could play in the varsity game. I told her that as long as she had eligible quarters, she could play....and then I asked if she had "fouled out" for receiving two technical fouls (no...just five fouls.) I find it helps to know the state rules.

hm... I'm pretty sure PIAA doesn't have any provisions like that. I think the only ineligibility in these situations is that anyone who plays JV cannot START (i.e. be one of the 5 starters on either team) the Varsity game, but can certainly play at any point after the initial jump ball. Other than that, I'm pretty certain there are no quarters restrictions.

This is strictly a local issue. In my state for example I believe a player only has so many quarters they can play a season. As officials we having nothing to do with this or do not allow a player to play as a result. This is totally an administrative issue for the schools and they are to report on each other if this rule is violated. And that is why I have no idea how many quarters a player can play and if anyone has ever gotten in trouble for violating such rule.

Peace

Just to be clear; if your association wants you to have an answer, fine. But to me, any answer that has to be prefaced with "I'm not exactly sure, but...." is best not given in this circumstance.

And telling the coach "I can't answer" isn't being a jerk, it's being honest. And, again just IMO, any assigner who asks you to have an answer is just asking for trouble down the road.

I completely disagree with this statement. Not only do I have no knowledge of what the rule is or is not, we have never been asked to give such a ruling. As stated if your state wants you to be knowledgeable about this rule, it is their responsibility to give that information to you. Our only obligation otherwise is to know the rules of the game. This to me is the equivalent of knowing who has their grades in order. Do you answer questions about those situations too?

Peace

What if you didn't work the JV game? Who is responsible to tracking an providing this information? This is what I call an official "Goat Rope" starting. I am not getting concerned with who, and how many quarters are being played by whom. If I was in a state that had this rule, they would have to provide someone to inform the coaches and teams to players eligibility. What a mess:rolleyes:

I'm pretty sure a player can play five quarters a day in Missouri. I have been asked about it a couple of times by coaches and I just tell them I'm not in charge of eligibility issues and that they'll have to handle it on their own.

Bingo. Just to add, inserting yourself into this, even by giving a qualified answer, is opening yourself up to being asked to enforce it.

Again, if you Romans want it done differently, so be it.

I have no trouble telling the coach the rule, but I certainly don't have any responsibility or interest in enforcing it. If I did not know the rule, I would say that. But this rule is simple, clear and concise. I have no problem sharing that knowledge with a coach.

I see a big difference between "I'm not exactly sure, but..." and "It's not my jurisdiction, but my understanding is..."

I see a question about quarters on par with suspension for ejection.

For example, after a game in which I toss a player, a coach asks "Does he miss my game tomorrow?" I likely respond with the process "I submit a report. The State Association is in contact with your AD. It's not my ruling, but I understand that the player is suspended for a game. Contact your AD for the official ruling."

Now, that's my opinion and how I choose to handle it. I give no definitive interpretation. I merely try to point the coach in the right direction. I draw from common knowledge that ejection = suspension. I get asked because I'm an official but do not relay the official notification of suspension.

I don't think anyone else is a jerk if they reply "I can't answer" or anything like that. However, I've taken that route as well and felt like a jerk. That's what I speak to. I don't go out of my way to clarify with coaches, just like I don't seek their approval when I call a foul. I hear a question, I have some knowledge, I share what I know.

The bottom line is you cannot answer to something you do not know. I will help someone get the information if needed, but I will never say what someone will do outside of my jurisdiction. And if you do not know, then you do not know. We are not experts on everything. There are just some things we will not have the answer to. And that sometimes includes rules and situations we have never experienced.

Peace

Coach: Can this player play?

Me: If he's in the book and properly attired, Julius Erving can play and it's ok with me.

I know one poster who might say "Don't be a plumber." In this case, he would be right. Unless the state says enforcement is up to the game officials, it is not my problem.

Prior to the season, the OHSAA sends me (and every other licensed official in Ohio) a booklet that contains all the state regs. Included in there are the participation rules. We are expected to know what is in these booklets. Mostly its a listing of activity dates and a list of scheduled rules meetings. However, as I said, the participation rules are also in this book. Therefore, while we are not the enforcement arm on them, the state does expect us to know what they are.

In Ohio, where every school is allowed to play 20 games; each player is allowed 90 quarters per season and 5 quarters per day. OT is an extension of the 4th quarter. The Post season OHSAA tournament does not count towards that total. There are always different officials for the JV and Varsity game, so we aren't aware of any violations. However, in the off chance that we become aware of a violation, we are expected to send a report to the state so that they can investigate.

Washington State participation rules
 

52.4.0 SQUAD AND CONTEST LIMITATIONS - Each squad (Varsity, J.V., Sophomore, or other squad) may schedule up to twenty (20) contests and a jamboree.
52.4.1 ADDITIONAL CONTEST ALLOWED - A twenty-first (21st) game against an international touring team is allowed once every three (3) years according to the criteria outlined in International Sanction Procedures
52.4.2 Each squad is allowed to schedule and to participate in only one (1) contest per day.
52.4.3 Each interscholastic contest played must be credited as a contest to a definite squad.
52.4.4 Subvarsity basketball players may play in two (2) subvarsity games, a total of up to eight (8) subvarsity quarters, in one (1) day, on eight (8) different occasions, provided there is a minimum of 45 minutes rest between games. Athletes would still be limited to 80 quarters in a season.
52.5.0 PLAYER LIMITATION – Each player may play in twenty (20) contests, but in doing so may not exceed eighty (80) quarters. Any appearance in a quarter, regardless of the length of time played, shall be considered as one (1) quarter. This is interpreted as meaning when a player is beckoned onto the floor and the ball becomes alive, that the player has played in one (1) quarter.
52.5.1 Players from all classifications of schools except 1B schools may appear in a maximum of four (4) quarters in one (1) day.
52.5.2 Players in 1B schools may appear in a maximum of five (5) quarters in one (1) day.
52.5.3 Players from all classifications of schools except 1B schools may participate in a maximum of 20 games during the regular season.
52.5.4 Players in 1B schools may participate in a maximum of 80 quarters during the regular season.
52.5.5 In an attempt to maintain and salvage a varsity or junior varsity 1B league schedule, an eighth grader who has participated on either a WIAA member middle school or a WIAA member junior high school team may participate on the high school team provided the total number of high school participants does not exceed specified numbers.
52.5.5.1 If the total number of high school participants is less than twice the number to field a team, eighth graders may play on the varsity squad. If eighth graders play on the varsity squad, the total number of participants on the high school team may not exceed twice the number to field a team plus two (2).
52.5.5.2 If the total number of high school participants is between two times and three times the number to field a team, eighth graders may play only on the junior varsity squad.
52.5.5.3 When utilizing eighth graders, the total combined number of high school and eighth grade players must not exceed three times the number to field an individual team.
52.5.5.4 If an eighth grader has participated in a middle level or junior high team, an eighth grader may participate in a maximum of forty quarters.
52.6.0 COUNTING QUARTERS AND CONTESTS:
52.6.1 Four (4) quarters played against the same squad is one (1) contest.
52.6.2 Four (4) quarters played against the same school, same day, different squads (i.e., varsity and junior varsity squads) is one (1) contest.
52.6.3 Four (4) quarters played against the same school, different days during the same week, different squads (i.e., varsity on Tuesday, junior varsity on Thursday) is one (1) contest. If a player exceeds four (4) quarters, that player is considered to have participated in two (2)
contests (one (1) contest on each day).
52.6.4 A total of four (4) quarters played against two (2) different schools, same day, different squads is one (1) contest.
52.6.5 One (1) or more quarters played against two (2) different schools, different days during the same week, different squads would be two (2) contests.
52.6.6 Postseason games do not count against the game or quarterly season limitation.
52.5.7 FIFTH QUARTER - A fifth quarter may be played only by freshmen basketball squads following the regular contest. The 5th quarter is for players who were not starters and who played in two (2) quarters or less of the regular contest.

Could you expand upon that?

Expand upon it how?

How I am reading & understanding the latter part of the rule, is by using an example.

Team A vs. Team B play against each other (each team has A.B. & C squads participating) on a Saturday afternoon/evening. Team A JV player 1 plays 3 quarters in the JV game, then during V comes in as a sub in 4th quarter. Since the player has already played 3 quarters in JV, they are only allowed to play in one quarter for V.

My alma mater is of one of the smaller classifications for the WIAA, so it's common for a player to be a member of more than one squad.

Ignats,
In addition, it is a technical foul if a player participates in a 6th quarter in a day. Generally, when JV players are participating in the varsity game, the quarters available will be noted in the book. The official scorers for each game are responsible for documenting the quarters played.

Of course, if the official scorer does not properly document quarters played, it is no different than not documenting individual fouls. We can only enforce what is documented.

I was involved in a game where this happened a coupleof years ago. The determination was that we should not assess a T, but file a report in Columbus. Forfeits will result. But I don't remember reading that we should assess a T in the state book. There is no justification for a T (that I am aware of) in the NFHS book. I could be wrong. I don't read the state book from cover to cover. :eek: :D

The "OHSAA Pre-Season Basketball Manual" helpfully has no page numbers, but you can find the relevant rule in the section entitled "OHSAA Sports Regulations."

Here it is: "If a player violates this rule [concerning quarters played], the team shall be assessed a technical foul by the official and the player shall be disqualified from the game."

A report to Columbus is not required or mentioned for violations of this rule.

The rules listed below are those in use by the Washington Interscholatic Activities Association (WIAA), not the NFHS. This shows how states can have different rules concerning the same thing.

He was yanking your chain.