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jdmara Wed Dec 16, 2009 07:58pm
Elbow Pad
 
{Don't have my books with me} Are elbow pads illegal equipment? I always thought they were but in the (college) game I'm watching, one of the players is wearing a sleeve with an apparent hex pad integrated. Just curious

I'm concerned with FED

-Josh

representing Wed Dec 16, 2009 08:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmara (Post 643210)
{Don't have my books with me} Are elbow pads illegal equipment? I always thought they were but in the (college) game I'm watching, one of the players is wearing a sleeve with an apparent hex pad integrated. Just curious

I'm concerned with FED

-Josh
FED???

I don't know what it is in college ball, but in high school under the NFHS 3-5-2:

a. A Guard, cast or brace made of hard and unyielding leather, plaster, pliable (soft) plastic, metal or any other hard substance may not be worn on the elbow, hand, finger/thumb, wrist or forearm; even though covered with soft padding.

b and c omitted

d. must be worn for medical reasons.

A sleeve is not an illegal material, but it must be worn for medical reasons, accompanied by a doctor's note saying it was prescribed to wear this during sporting events.

Not sure what the hex pattern would be for, could be just a cushion inside because she probably injured her elbow and wants to protect it from excessive contact to avoid further, serious injuries.

Mark Padgett Wed Dec 16, 2009 08:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by representing (Post 643213)
she probably injured her elbow .
Are you watching the same game or did you just assume he'd be watching a game with gurrllllzzzz playing? :p

representing Wed Dec 16, 2009 08:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett (Post 643214)
Are you watching the same game or did you just assume he'd be watching a game with gurrllllzzzz playing? :p
I'm psychic :)

nah, I thought he said it was a women's college game in one way or another for some reason and I just said "she". But yes, I would usually say he/she in this kind of situation.

Is it a women's college game?

JRutledge Wed Dec 16, 2009 08:21pm
No, they are not illegal at any level. Not unless they are hard and abrasive material. But a traditional pad has always been legal. Players just do not wear them anymore like they once did.

Peace

representing Wed Dec 16, 2009 08:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 643216)
No, they are not illegal at any level. Not unless they are hard and abrasive material. But a traditional pad has always been legal. Players just do not wear them anymore like they once did.

Peace
Allen Iverson-style sleeves are illegal in NFHS unless prescribed by a doctor, and the player or coach has an actual doctor's note saying that he/she must wear one.

Nothing covering the elbow or above is allowed without a doctor's note for medical reasons only.

Also, as for hard items, they are allowed on the upper arm or shoulder but must be padded. They are not allowed at all on the elbow, hand, finger/thumb, wrist or forearm. Not even with soft padding.

You should read up on Rule 3, Section 5, Article 2(a through d).

Adam Wed Dec 16, 2009 08:34pm
So, which rule says a doctor's note is required for a compression sleeve?

BillyMac Wed Dec 16, 2009 08:45pm
From The Desk Of Doctor ???
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 643222)
So, which rule says a doctor's note is required for a compression sleeve?
As you already know, there is no such rule.

I believe that the NFHS only requires a note from a doctor if a player that has been unconscious wants to return to the game. Otherwise, NFHS rules don't say anything about a note for any other reason. In some cases the NFHS states that some equipment, for example head coverings, must be approved by the state association, but the NFHS doesn't say that the approval must be in writing, or be available to the official. Now state associations may have a different set of guidelines, but that is separate from any NFHS rules. We may have fifty different sets of guidelines.

representing Wed Dec 16, 2009 08:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 643222)
So, which rule says a doctor's note is required for a compression sleeve?
the part that says "must be worn for medical purposes". Players must prove that they are worn for medical purposes and not as an adornment, thus a medical note must be in accompany with this situation.

Now that you said that though, it is possible each state association have their own method for proving it is worn for medical reasons. I know at least in PIAA we have to see a doctor's note of some sort that says items such as compression sleeves must be worn for medical purposes. Not sure how it is if it is different in other state's association or if this was something that the NFHS said.

Adam Wed Dec 16, 2009 08:48pm
Some states want you to ask, some states want you to assume, some states want you to see a note. Here, we just ask. "Is that for a medical reason?" An affirmative answer is all I need, no Dr. note required. We were told the same thing when it came to religious attire. Leave it alone and contact the state office.

As long as it's not a safety issue, of course.

JRutledge Wed Dec 16, 2009 08:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by representing (Post 643219)
Allen Iverson-style sleeves are illegal in NFHS unless prescribed by a doctor, and the player or coach has an actual doctor's note saying that he/she must wear one.

Nothing covering the elbow or above is allowed without a doctor's note for medical reasons only.
Not true. Those sleeves are completely legal and to be assumed to be worn for medical purposes. There is nothing in the rule that says a doctor must subscribe them to be worn or better yet, nothing that says a note must be produced. Unless your jurisdiction wants this, you do not even have to verify this information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by representing (Post 643219)

Also, as for hard items, they are allowed on the upper arm or shoulder but must be padded. They are not allowed at all on the elbow, hand, finger/thumb, wrist or forearm. Not even with soft padding.

You should read up on Rule 3, Section 5, Article 2(a through d).
The only things that cannot be worn in the elbow are wristbands (outside of this discussion) that I have ever seen made clear in the past two years. Wearing and elbow pad (designed by for the elbow) is perfectly legal. There are also some descriptions of this in the Simplified and Illustrated book. You either did not read the rule correctly or you are assuming what is illegal.

Peace

representing Wed Dec 16, 2009 08:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 643229)
Some states want you to ask, some states want you to assume, some states want you to see a note. Here, we just ask. "Is that for a medical reason?" An affirmative answer is all I need, no Dr. note required. We were told the same thing when it came to religious attire. Leave it alone and contact the state office.

As long as it's not a safety issue, of course.
In PIAA I know we were told you must ask to see the doctor's note, but if the coach says something like "we filed it with the state and our AD has it in his office" then I can say "ok coach, I'll take your word for it" and then just bring it up with the chapter to call the state and verify. At that point, it's out of our hands and PIAA will do what it wants to do if it turns out the coach was lying.

JRutledge Wed Dec 16, 2009 09:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by representing (Post 643228)
the part that says "must be worn for medical purposes". Players must prove that they are worn for medical purposes and not as an adornment, thus a medical note must be in accompany with this situation.
If a trainer gives them something to put on their arm, that does not count?

You will not find any part of this rule that says a note is required by a doctor. The only part in basketball rules that require a doctor's note is the one you need if a player is unconscious. If a player is not unconscious, there is no note needed. That has absolutely nothing to do with this issue and what is worn on the arm. In football we need a note to verify that a players is allowed to wear a cast, but that rule requires specific specifications and says what kind of doctor (MD/DO is needed) can and cannot provide that information. So in other words a "trainer" on their own cannot write and note and say a player is cleared to play.

You are reading too much into the rule and what is required.

Peace

representing Wed Dec 16, 2009 09:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 643232)
Not true. Those sleeves are completely legal and to be assumed to be worn for medical purposes. There is nothing in the rule that says a doctor must subscribe them to be worn or better yet, nothing that says a note must be produced. Unless your jurisdiction wants this, you do not even have to verify this information.
You're partially right. While it should be assumed that it is for medical purposes, that's the only reason for it to be legal. BUT, if it is used for adornment, then it is illegal. Those arm sleeves are popular on the market ever since Allen Iverson has started wearing one when he was first with the Sixers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 643232)
The only things that cannot be worn in the elbow are wristbands (outside of this discussion) that I have ever seen made clear in the past two years. Wearing and elbow pad (designed by for the elbow) is perfectly legal. There are also some descriptions of this in the Simplified and Illustrated book. You either did not read the rule correctly or you are assuming what is illegal.

Peace
Ok, I'm not so sure about elbow pads anymore. I don't think "pads" fit under "guards, casts, braces and compression sleeves" under rule 3.5.2. However, it doesn't say anything about whether pads are legal or not. So, I I couldn't tell you whether they are legal or not. For now, I will take your word until I talk with the chapter rules interpreter at our next meeting.

But like it was said earlier, elbow pads are very rare, I don't think I've seen an elbow pad in the 6 years I've been officiating. I have seen knee pads, but only in youth leagues on floors that are old, wooden and hard, and will cause floor burns on your body when sliding.

representing Wed Dec 16, 2009 09:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 643236)
If a trainer gives them something to put on their arm, that does not count?

You will not find any part of this rule that says a note is required by a doctor. The only part in basketball rules that require a doctor's note is the one you need if a player is unconscious. If a player is not unconscious, there is no note needed. That has absolutely nothing to do with this issue and what is worn on the arm. In football we need a note to verify that a players is allowed to wear a cast, but that rule requires specific specifications and says what kind of doctor (MD/DO is needed) can and cannot provide that information. So in other words a "trainer" on their own cannot write and note and say a player is cleared to play.

You are reading too much into the rule and what is required.

Peace
one other time that it is listed in the book that you need a physician's note is under Rule 3.4.3 EXCEPTION:

State associations may on an individual basis permit a player to participate while wearing a head covering if it meets the following criteria:
a. for medical or cosmetic reasons - In the event a participant is required by a licensed medical physician to cover his/her head with a covering or wrap, the physician's statement is required before the state association can approve a covering or wrap which is not abrasive, hard or dangerous to any other player and which is attached in such a way it is highly unlikely that it will come off during play.
b. OMITTED

My sister had to wear a face mask her junior year after breaking her nose in two different places. She had to get the face mask approved with the state before wearing it.

BillyMac Wed Dec 16, 2009 09:19pm
Just Let Me Take A Little Peak Under There...
 
Here in my little corner of the Provisions State, if a player is in the warmup line wearing tape on an earlobe, we have been told to ask the player if there is a earring under the tape. If he, or she, replies, "Yes", then we are to inform them that they will not be allowed to play or warmup, with earrings. On the other hand, if the player replies, "No", then we have been told to end the discussion right then and there, and he, or she, continues to warmup, and plays in the game.

Adam Wed Dec 16, 2009 09:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by representing (Post 643238)
You're partially right. While it should be assumed that it is for medical purposes, that's the only reason for it to be legal. BUT, if it is used for adornment, then it is illegal. Those arm sleeves are popular on the market ever since Allen Iverson has started wearing one when he was first with the Sixers.
You say he's partially right. Where was he wrong?
Jrut makes a good point. The rule says it must be worn for medical reasons, not that it must be prescribed by a doctor. What if the kid has a 2nd degree burn on his arm? He won't see a doctor, but the trainer might have the sleeves around that will protect it.
What if he just got a tattoo and needs to protect it from his sweat? Again, the compression sleeve works well to prevent infection here. I take Nyquil for medical reasons but it's never been prescribed to me.

Nothing says it has to be a prescribed device.

JRutledge Wed Dec 16, 2009 09:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by representing (Post 643238)
You're partially right. While it should be assumed that it is for medical purposes, that's the only reason for it to be legal. BUT, if it is used for adornment, then it is illegal. Those arm sleeves are popular on the market ever since Allen Iverson has started wearing one when he was first with the Sixers.
Once again, you are reading too much into the rule. These are legal unless they are not used for medical purposes. The rule says they are used for medical purposes. Your state might want further confirmation of that, but it is not stated in the actual rule what that confirmation should or should not be. My state we do not have to ask. And that was made clear to us last year when the rule was clarified. Your state has the right to require some level of confirmation and based on what I have read that applies. But if a school from your state comes to my state for a tournament or shootout, I am not asking for a note, nor care to see one. The fact they are wearing it is enough for me as the rule is currently written.


Quote:
Originally Posted by representing (Post 643238)
Ok, I'm not so sure about elbow pads anymore. I don't think "pads" fit under "guards, casts, braces and compression sleeves" under rule 3.5.2. However, it doesn't say anything about whether pads are legal or not. So, I I couldn't tell you whether they are legal or not. For now, I will take your word until I talk with the chapter rules interpreter at our next meeting.
Here is a general standard you should use. Unless there is a rule that makes it illegal, it is legal. So if a pad is made for the elbow and worn on the elbow, it is legal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by representing (Post 643238)
But like it was said earlier, elbow pads are very rare, I don't think I've seen an elbow pad in the 6 years I've been officiating. I have seen knee pads, but only in youth leagues on floors that are old, wooden and hard, and will cause floor burns on your body when sliding.
I agree they are rare. But something rarely seen does not make it illegal. ;)

Peace

BillyMac Wed Dec 16, 2009 09:25pm
You Who ???
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by representing (Post 643242)
One other time that it is listed in the book that you need a physician's note is under Rule 3.4.3 EXCEPTION.
Who's you? By NFHS rule, the state association needs the doctor's note, not the official. And nowhere does the NFHS say that the note must be kept by the player, coach, or trainer, although, if I were coaching again, as a precaution, I would have a copy available in my first aid kit for officials that didn't understand the NFHS rule and wanted to see such a note.

representing Wed Dec 16, 2009 09:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 643247)
Once again, you are reading too much into the rule. These are legal unless they are not used for medical purposes. The rule says they are used for medical purposes. Your state might want further confirmation of that, but it is not stated in the actual rule what that confirmation should or should not be. My state we do not have to ask. And that was made clear to us last year when the rule was clarified. Your state has the right to require some level of confirmation and based on what I have read that applies. But if a school from your state comes to my state for a tournament or shootout, I am not asking for a note, nor care to see one. The fact they are wearing it is enough for me as the rule is currently written.




Here is a general standard you should use. Unless there is a rule that makes it illegal, it is legal. So if a pad is made for the elbow and worn on the elbow, it is legal.



I agree they are rare. But something rarely seen does not make it illegal. ;)

Peace
JRut, I'm going to apologize. I realized you are right here, with the examples you've given (fire burn, tattoo, etc). I do remember, though, that it was discussed a year or two ago that a doctor's note is/was needed for certain article of player equipment.

So, again, I apologize, you are right here (I think).

EDIT: Snaq gave those examples, not JRut. I apologize to both of you.

bob jenkins Wed Dec 16, 2009 09:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by representing (Post 643254)
JRut, I'm going to apologize. I realized you are right here, with the examples you've given (fire burn, tattoo, etc). I do remember, though, that it was discussed a year or two ago that a doctor's note is/was needed for certain article of player equipment.
It might have been needed in PA (and in some other states), but it's not needed in IL (and in some other states).

As you spend more time here, you'll realize that how you (or any of us) do things is not how all of us do things. And, all of us can be "right".

JRutledge Wed Dec 16, 2009 09:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by representing (Post 643254)
JRut, I'm going to apologize. I realized you are right here, with the examples you've given (fire burn, tattoo, etc). I do remember, though, that it was discussed a year or two ago that a doctor's note is/was needed for certain article of player equipment.

So, again, I apologize, you are right here (I think).
Do not apologize to me about anything you said here, we are just having a discussion. That is the reason we have these discussions in the first place. We often learn more within these discussions than we do by simply reading the rulebook or casebook. And you might also be using your state's interpretation. No need what so ever to apologize for a discussion that leads you (or me) to the right application. ;)

Do not worry about it. I was just thinking of situations that might not have a doctor's note available. I am assuming this is why the rule was written this way to leave some opening for multiple situations.

Peace

BillyMac Wed Dec 16, 2009 09:38pm
Please Accept My Sincere Apology ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 643260)
Do not apologize to me about anything you said here, we are just having a discussion.
JRutledge: I'm sorry that representing apologized.

representing Wed Dec 16, 2009 09:38pm
I'm still a newbie on this forum, so I still got lots to learn. Thanks guys! Looking forward to the next discussion haha. :)

JRutledge Wed Dec 16, 2009 09:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 643261)
JRutledge: I'm sorry that representing apologized.
Now you shut the heck up!!!! http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...aughing024.gif

Peace

jdmara Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:54pm
It was actually a men's college game I was watching on TV. I can't remember which one it was at the time we were watching at the local drinking establishment. But after we talked about it at the establishment, we figured out where we heard that rule from, it's a NIRSA flag football rule. Thanks for the discussion

-Josh

tjones1 Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by representing (Post 643213)
FED???
Fed = NFHS

jdmara Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:02am
BTW, this is what I saw on the player

McDavidUSA.com - HexPad® Power Shooter™ Arm Sleeve

Back In The Saddle Thu Dec 17, 2009 03:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 643261)
JRutledge: I'm sorry that representing apologized.
This gets my vote for post o' the week! :D

Nevadaref Thu Dec 17, 2009 03:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by representing (Post 643228)
the part that says "must be worn for medical purposes". Players must prove that they are worn for medical purposes and not as an adornment, thus a medical note must be in accompany with this situation.

Now that you said that though, it is possible each state association have their own method for proving it is worn for medical reasons. I know at least in PIAA we have to see a doctor's note of some sort that says items such as compression sleeves must be worn for medical purposes. Not sure how it is if it is different in other state's association or if this was something that the NFHS said.
Actually, the NFHS has said the opposite from what you have written. You are new here, but if you would have done a search of our previous threads, you would have seen that I posted the NFHS answer to what "worn for medical purposes" means over two years ago.

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...ew-3-5-2d.html

From the other thread with above link:

This was an editorial change…no need for any kind of documentation….from a doctor or otherwise. We can make certain assumptions about what is being worn…knee sleeve, brace, etc. are usually worn for medical purposes. If there is a doubt, all the official has to do is ask the student-athlete, coach, trainer, anyone….”is that being worn for medical purposes?” If the answer is yes, then it’s fine. Vast majority of items will comply. No need to over-think or over-officiate this. If anything was required, medical documentation or a doctor’s note, it would have been stated that way.

Mary Struckhoff
Assistant Director
Basketball & Softball Rules Editor

grunewar Thu Dec 17, 2009 08:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 643229)
Here, we just ask. "Is that for a medical reason?" An affirmative answer is all I need, no Dr. note required.
This is how we've been instructed too.

Had a BJV on Tues night, third time I've asked the same player in the last few weeks/months about his sleeve. He always takes it off. Ya think by now he'd learn the right answer to continue to wear it....... but, on the bright side, at least he's honest. :)

RookieDude Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:26am
...what about long sleeve shirts?

Had a boys V game with a player wearing a long sleeve t-shirt under his uniform. The under shirt was the same color as jersey...just long sleeved.

We allowed it.

I seem to remember this discussion before...even long pants would be OK if I remember correctly....as would a skirt be OK.

JPaco54 Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:35am
Elbow Pads?
 
My son wears one every game for Varsity Games at the High School level and so did his older brother. We have a family traditioin of bone chips in the elbow area. It is black compression material with a soft pad. Both of them have never been questioned about it other than an official will come over and ask if they can feel the pad to make sure it is soft. They have played games in IL, TN, KT, MS, AR, AL and never had a problem with HS varsity officials.

representing Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RookieDude (Post 643431)
...what about long sleeve shirts?

Had a boys V game with a player wearing a long sleeve t-shirt under his uniform. The under shirt was the same color as jersey...just long sleeved.

We allowed it.

I seem to remember this discussion before...even long pants would be OK if I remember correctly....as would a skirt be OK.
Rule 4.1.5 says:

Undershirts shall be a single solid color similar to the torso of the jersey and shall be hemmed and not have frayed or ragged edges. If the undershirt has sleeves, they shall be the same length. A visible manufacturer's logo/trademark/reference is not permitted on the undershirt.

It does not say anything about restricted length of sleeves, so yes, it is legal.

As for pants, they are legal as well. Players are allowed to wear shorts, skirts or pants.

referee99 Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:57am
You picqued my interest with your subject line.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 643245)
Just Let Me Take A Little Peak Under There...

Here in my little corner of the Provisions State, if a player is in the warmup line wearing tape on an earlobe, we have been told to ask the player if there is a earring under the tape. If he, or she, replies, "Yes", then we are to inform them that they will not be allowed to play or warmup, with earrings. On the other hand, if the player replies, "No", then we have been told to end the discussion right then and there, and he, or she, continues to warmup, and plays in the game.
that is all..


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