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rsl Wed Dec 16, 2009 03:21pm
bad day
 
Sorry for the long post. I had the worst game ever this week (Soph Boys) due to my own mistakes, amplified by a rookie partner, rookie scorekeeper, rookie timer, and a pair of howler monkeys. But ultimately these were my mistakes, and I'd like some advice:

At start of second half, throw-in goes into backcourt and within about two steps I call a quick hand check foul on the defense. As I report the foul, I check the clock and realize it never started. Since the ball went into the backcourt, I had started a ten second count, but in the process of getting the foul I can't remember what count I reached. Without definite knowledge, I don't take any time off. Defensive coach goes ballistic and says if I don't take time off I have to take away the foul, too.

In the middle of the fourth, we have a rebounding foul in the double bonus, so we walk from one end to the other and line up the players. I bounce the ball to the shooter and immediately notice the scorekeeper holding up five fingers indicating the player has five fouls (No horn, even though we have walked the length of the floor). Rather than take the ball back, I let the player shoot the ball. After the shot misses, the coach (same coach as above) says his player gets another shot because the other team had an ineligible player on the lane. I respond that he is not ineligible until I notify his coach and the shot stands.

Here is where it gets really ugly. We get the new player in, and I bounce the ball for the second shot, the shot misses, and my partner blows his whistle before team control. Apparently the coach has convinced him he does get another shot. So now we have a whistle with no control, and we have to go to the arrow and the shooting team gets the ball back.

Now both coaches are ticked. One thinks he should get another shot, the other knows he would have got the rebound and now doesn't get the ball. About two minutes later another player fouls out and the other coach refuses to provide a sub as a protest over the whole thing, so I have to T him up.

The T finally settles things down, and we ride out the last two minutes. Here what I think I should have done:

(1) taken two seconds off the clock just for appearance sake at the start of the second half. That is where the coach started getting agitated.

(2) Blown the whistle when I realized the player had fouled out, rather than letting the shot go. Also, make sure I follow the procedure exactly for a player with five fouls, i.e., notify the player, then coach, then start the 20 second clock.

(3) Had my rookie partner administer the shot and been table side myself to deal with the coaches. Also, just had better communication with my partner.

Any thoughts? Live and learn, or quit altogether?

fullor30 Wed Dec 16, 2009 03:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsl (Post 643107)
Sorry for the long post. I had the worst game ever this week (Soph Boys) due to my own mistakes, amplified by a rookie partner, rookie scorekeeper, rookie timer, and a pair of howler monkeys. But ultimately these were my mistakes, and I'd like some advice:

At start of second half, throw-in goes into backcourt and within about two steps I call a quick hand check foul on the defense. As I report the foul, I check the clock and realize it never started. Since the ball went into the backcourt, I had started a ten second count, but in the process of getting the foul I can't remember what count I reached. Without definite knowledge, I don't take any time off. Defensive coach goes ballistic and says if I don't take time off I have to take away the foul, too.

In the middle of the fourth, we have a rebounding foul in the double bonus, so we walk from one end to the other and line up the players. I bounce the ball to the shooter and immediately notice the scorekeeper holding up five fingers indicating the player has five fouls (No horn, even though we have walked the length of the floor). Rather than take the ball back, I let the player shoot the ball. After the shot misses, the coach (same coach as above) says his player gets another shot because the other team had an ineligible player on the lane. I respond that he is not ineligible until I notify his coach and the shot stands.

Here is where it gets really ugly. We get the new player in, and I bounce the ball for the second shot, the shot misses, and my partner blows his whistle before team control. Apparently the coach has convinced him he does get another shot. So now we have a whistle with no control, and we have to go to the arrow and the shooting team gets the ball back.

Now both coaches are ticked. One thinks he should get another shot, the other knows he would have got the rebound and now doesn't get the ball. About two minutes later another player fouls out and the other coach refuses to provide a sub as a protest over the whole thing, so I have to T him up.

The T finally settles things down, and we ride out the last two minutes. Here what I think I should have done:

(1) taken two seconds off the clock just for appearance sake at the start of the second half. That is where the coach started getting agitated.

(2) Blown the whistle when I realized the player had fouled out, rather than letting the shot go. Also, make sure I follow the procedure exactly for a player with five fouls, i.e., notify the player, then coach, then start the 20 second clock.

(3) Had my rookie partner administer the shot and been table side myself to deal with the coaches. Also, just had better communication with my partner.

Any thoughts? Live and learn, or quit altogether?


Busy at work, basically, coaches were trying to manipulate you. what new?

offici88 Wed Dec 16, 2009 03:32pm
Live and learn. Don't make the same mistakes (too many times) again. We all have bad days. The key is that you're reflecting on what went wrong, when, and how it could be better next time.

For your situations, I would have corrected the clock. Obviously some time elapsed and you know it was less than 10 seconds.

For the 5th foul, I'd blow a double whistle for effect, take the ball from the shooter, and get the fouled out player out of the game.

Inadvertent whistles happen. Your partner's came at a very inopportune time.

Keep in mind that this was a lower-level game. The players are learning and developing as well as coaches and officials. With more experience you'll put this behind you and remember fondly of the very bad game you don't want to have again.

jdw3018 Wed Dec 16, 2009 03:33pm
Tough game. Glad you are ready to learn from it!

First, on the clock situation, some will day you have to have definite knowledge of the entire amount of time in order to take it off. Others will say that if you have definite knowledge of a portion of that time, to take that much off. I'm in the second group. If you know you got to two on your count, but may have gotten to three or four, take two seconds off. You have definite knowledge of that much time.

As for the disqualified player, I actually have no problem with you waiting for the dead ball, since the ball was to remain dead after the free throw. But very clear communication with the coaches and your partner after replacing the player would have been helpful here obviously.

And the appropriate procedure after a 5th foul is to notify the coach, then the timer for the 20-second interval, then the player.

Overall, sounds like a tough go of things, but I wouldn't beat yourself up over these two parts of the game too much. You learned a lot, and the biggest lesson is probably about game management and awareness. That would have solved a lot of your issues.

dsqrddgd909 Wed Dec 16, 2009 03:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsl (Post 643107)
Any thoughts? Live and learn, or quit altogether?
As a rookie, who had a game like that last week:

"never give up, never surrender"

Mark Padgett Wed Dec 16, 2009 03:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsl (Post 643107)
Defensive coach goes ballistic and says if I don't take time off I have to take away the foul, too.
Did you ask him under what rule he got this idea? :cool:

offici88 Wed Dec 16, 2009 03:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw3018 (Post 643115)
Tough game. Glad you are ready to learn from it!

First, on the clock situation, some will day you have to have definite knowledge of the entire amount of time in order to take it off. Others will say that if you have definite knowledge of a portion of that time, to take that much off. I'm in the second group. If you know you got to two on your count, but may have gotten to three or four, take two seconds off. You have definite knowledge of that much time.
Great advice. In the time between realizing that the clock didn't run and addressing the coach, I, myself, would choose a number of seconds that I was absolutely sure ran off the clock and sell him one it. It's definite knowledge if you make definite call.

Raymond Wed Dec 16, 2009 03:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsl (Post 643107)
...

At start of second half, throw-in goes into backcourt and within about two steps I call a quick hand check foul on the defense. As I report the foul, I check the clock and realize it never started. Since the ball went into the backcourt, I had started a ten second count, but in the process of getting the foul I can't remember what count I reached. Without definite knowledge, I don't take any time off. Defensive coach goes ballistic and says if I don't take time off I have to take away the foul, too...
Well, if you started a backcourt count then that means you have definite knowledge that at least 1 second should have come off the clock. ;)

If you remember swinging your arm at least twice, then you know that 2 seconds should come off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rsl (Post 643107)
Now both coaches are ticked. One thinks he should get another shot, the other knows he would have got the rebound and now doesn't get the ball. About two minutes later another player fouls out and the other coach refuses to provide a sub as a protest over the whole thing, so I have to T him up.

The T finally settles things down, and we ride out the last two minutes.
...
Well, this is something that you did right, so not all was lost. :)

Anchor Wed Dec 16, 2009 04:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsl (Post 643107)
Sorry for the long post. I had the worst game ever this week (Soph Boys) due to my own mistakes, amplified by a rookie partner, rookie scorekeeper, rookie timer, and a pair of howler monkeys. But ultimately these were my mistakes, and I'd like some advice:

At start of second half, throw-in goes into backcourt and within about two steps I call a quick hand check foul on the defense. As I report the foul, I check the clock and realize it never started. Since the ball went into the backcourt, I had started a ten second count, but in the process of getting the foul I can't remember what count I reached. Without definite knowledge, I don't take any time off. Defensive coach goes ballistic and says if I don't take time off I have to take away the foul, too.
I don't suffer idiot coaches well. I'd have told him something like "sure, coach; but that makes the foul technical so they get 2 shots, the ball, and the arrow now. You sure that's what you want me to do?" Of course, that's not exactly factual, but I doubt the coach knew that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rsl (Post 643107)
In the middle of the fourth, we have a rebounding foul in the double bonus, so we walk from one end to the other and line up the players. I bounce the ball to the shooter and immediately notice the scorekeeper holding up five fingers indicating the player has five fouls (No horn, even though we have walked the length of the floor). Rather than take the ball back, I let the player shoot the ball. After the shot misses, the coach (same coach as above) says his player gets another shot because the other team had an ineligible player on the lane. I respond that he is not ineligible until I notify his coach and the shot stands.
The only thing I might have done here was let your partner know what you had told the coach, which would have probably prevented the next situation. I find it infinitely helpful to fill in your partners on conversations you had with either coach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rsl (Post 643107)
Here is where it gets really ugly. We get the new player in, and I bounce the ball for the second shot, the shot misses, and my partner blows his whistle before team control. Apparently the coach has convinced him he does get another shot. So now we have a whistle with no control, and we have to go to the arrow and the shooting team gets the ball back.
This is definitely live and learn. The good news is that, since you wrote this thread, you actually lived; so whether you learned is still kinda up in the air, I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rsl (Post 643107)
Now both coaches are ticked. One thinks he should get another shot, the other knows he would have got the rebound and now doesn't get the ball. About two minutes later another player fouls out and the other coach refuses to provide a sub as a protest over the whole thing, so I have to T him up.
Sounds like you did what you had to do there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rsl (Post 643107)
The T finally settles things down, and we ride out the last two minutes. Here what I think I should have done:

(1) taken two seconds off the clock just for appearance sake at the start of the second half. That is where the coach started getting agitated. Not sure that's a good precedent to set. It could come back to bite you in the butt later in the game when they expect you to guess again at a more critical juncture.

(2) Blown the whistle when I realized the player had fouled out, rather than letting the shot go. Also, make sure I follow the procedure exactly for a player with five fouls, i.e., notify the player, then coach, then start the 20 second clock. Ball was alive; not your job to automatically know the number of fouls; ball was to become dead following the shot. No reason in the world to interrupt the sequence because the scorer is fruity.

(3) Had my rookie partner administer the shot and been table side myself to deal with the coaches. Also, just had better communication with my partner. You might be onto something there.

Any thoughts? Live and learn (this has my vote), or quit altogether?
Over all it sounds like the coaches were trying to play you, and, although you're doing some second guessing, you really didn't get played. Partner has some maturing to do, but that's why they're called rookies. I wouldn't be too hard on yourself.

Vinski Wed Dec 16, 2009 04:19pm
Overall, I think you did alright. Sounds like a little stronger coach management might be needed though. When a coach goes ballistic, deal with the behavior.

I know it’s easier to think about what you could do better when you’re not on the court getting yelled at by a coach, but try a simple, calm comment to his unfounded requests. His wanting to negate the foul because of no time coming off the clock or the reshooting of the free throw because the disqualified player not being subbed, might be responded to with something like “That is not supported by rule, Coach”. If he goes any further then take care of business as needed.
You said things quieted down after the T. Maybe the T was needed a bit sooner.

I’ve had days very similar to the one you mentioned and I’m still trying get a better handle on those. But I’m beginning to learn that how I compose myself and maintain my focus makes the biggest difference.
BTW, that’s not the last “bad day” you’ll have.

representing Wed Dec 16, 2009 04:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsl (Post 643107)
sorry for the long post. I had the worst game ever this week (soph boys) due to my own mistakes, amplified by a rookie partner, rookie scorekeeper, rookie timer, and a pair of howler monkeys. But ultimately these were my mistakes, and i'd like some advice:

At start of second half, throw-in goes into backcourt and within about two steps i call a quick hand check foul on the defense. As i report the foul, i check the clock and realize it never started. Since the ball went into the backcourt, i had started a ten second count, but in the process of getting the foul i can't remember what count i reached. Without definite knowledge, i don't take any time off. Defensive coach goes ballistic and says if i don't take time off i have to take away the foul, too.
like some have said, i would have taken at least one second off. If you know for sure that you counted x number of times your hand was extended, then take x seconds off.

in the middle of the fourth, we have a rebounding foul in the double bonus, so we walk from one end to the other and line up the players. I bounce the ball to the shooter and immediately notice the scorekeeper holding up five fingers indicating the player has five fouls (no horn, even though we have walked the length of the floor). Rather than take the ball back, i let the player shoot the ball. After the shot misses, the coach (same coach as above) says his player gets another shot because the other team had an ineligible player on the lane. I respond that he is not ineligible until i notify his coach and the shot stands.
i may be wrong here, but this is what i would have done. Don't interrupt the first shot, balls already given to shooter, and the 5-foul player won't be interrupting flow of game at this point. Then, when tie coach would say that his player should have another shot, i would have said "coach, the player was not involve with any further plays after the clock was dead for his 5th foul. I cannot give your player another shot as it was a fta." it is not one of the five correctable errors.

here is where it gets really ugly. We get the new player in, and i bounce the ball for the second shot, the shot misses, and my partner blows his whistle before team control. Apparently the coach has convinced him he does get another shot. So now we have a whistle with no control, and we have to go to the arrow and the shooting team gets the ball back.
correct! Inadvertent whistle with no team control. I probably would have t'd up the coach for trying to take advantage of the rookie, but that would have depend on the nature of the game. I wasn't there, so i couldn't tell you for sure on t.

now both coaches are ticked. One thinks he should get another shot, the other knows he would have got the rebound and now doesn't get the ball. About two minutes later another player fouls out and the other coach refuses to provide a sub as a protest over the whole thing, so i have to t him up.
technically, you could have ended the game, as that would be a forfeiture brought on by the coach. However, i would have t'd him up too and see if that would get him to put in another player. If not after that, then automatic forfeit.

the t finally settles things down, and we ride out the last two minutes. Here what i think i should have done:

(1) taken two seconds off the clock just for appearance sake at the start of the second half. That is where the coach started getting agitated.

(2) blown the whistle when i realized the player had fouled out, rather than letting the shot go. Also, make sure i follow the procedure exactly for a player with five fouls, i.e., notify the player, then coach, then start the 20 second clock.

(3) had my rookie partner administer the shot and been table side myself to deal with the coaches. Also, just had better communication with my partner.

Any thoughts? Live and learn, or quit altogether?
read red print above for my thoughts...

Loudwhistle Wed Dec 16, 2009 04:51pm
RSL,
Don't feel too bad about what happened! Of course learn from it and apply that wisdom to future games. I'll bet just about every reff on here has had a similar experience. I find myself reliving the game the next day and its hard for me to put behind mistakes I made. I DO NOT make the same mistake again in future games. You typing all this out is another way of really pounding it out in your head so it doesn't happen again! It gets better the longer you reff!

Adam Wed Dec 16, 2009 05:32pm
Representing, can you tell me which rule says the coach has forfeited the game by not providing his sub within 20 seconds? Hint:It's not there.

BktBallRef Wed Dec 16, 2009 05:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by representing (Post 643142)
technically, you could have ended the game, as that would be a forfeiture brought on by the coach. However, i would have t'd him up too and see if that would get him to put in another player. If not after that, then automatic forfeit.
Forfeiting a game is the last thing you ever want to do, under any situation.

Adam Wed Dec 16, 2009 05:36pm
Regarding the OP.
Whether you take time off the clock isn't really relevant to the coach's rant. He's flat our wrong about the rule, and he's wrong to go ballistic. If he's been a howler monkey already, this is a good spot for a T. If you want to be nice, "Coach, I understand you disagree with me on the rule, but I can't have you yelling at me."

On your second situation, I'd be tempted to let him know that he's now incorrectly challenged me on two rules in the same game, and I have a three strikes policy. In reality, I would have already talked to him after the first incident about proper behavior or I would have T'd him; either way, he's less likely to get stupid here. If he does, easy T.

Adam Wed Dec 16, 2009 05:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 643168)
Forfeiting a game is the last thing you ever want to do, under any situation.
Gee, would that be because it's not the rule?

mbyron Wed Dec 16, 2009 05:37pm
Sounds like you've already reflected on and analyzed the game. Now file it away, get back on the floor, and have some fun.

rsl Wed Dec 16, 2009 06:11pm
Lots of good advice... thanks guys.

This game was actually last Friday, and I have been contemplating all week.

It seems an earlier T would have been in order, then I would have gotten the right coach instead of the second coach.

I still need to figure out how to handle coaches- I didn't think fast enough on my feet. Frankly, I didn't think two seconds on the clock would be the trigger for the coach. I'm still confused about that one.

Back on the court tomorrow for a JV game with a varsity partner- that should help. Then I have a freshman game Friday with another rookie. We'll see if I'm ready.

Thanks Again!

Adam Wed Dec 16, 2009 06:13pm
If the varsity partner is someone you respect and whose career you'd like to follow, ask him for his opinion (or her) of your situation last week. You'll be able to give more details on the coach's behavior; and he may be familiar enough with the coach to advice that's better than we can offer here.

johnnyrao Wed Dec 16, 2009 06:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett (Post 643120)
Did you ask him under what rule he got this idea? :cool:
Mark, I thought you would tell him to take 6 minutes off the clock and start the fourth quarter.

Lcubed48 Thu Dec 17, 2009 06:19am
Postgame??
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsl (Post 643182)
Lots of good advice... thanks guys.

This game was actually last Friday, and I have been contemplating all week.
Did you conduct a post game with your partner after all that mess?
I had a similar stich last season. I was doing a BJV game with my little brother. I had called a double personal foul. Upon returning from reporting it at the table, I see my partner is talking with the one coach whose team isn't going to receive the POI throw in. Just as I walk up, I hear the coach ask him whose ball will it be. He responds that we will use the AP meaning it is now his team's throw in. I stepped in with the correct ruling, and told him that I would take care of everything at half time. We didn't hear anymore about it from him. I put my partner on the correct page during the intermission.
AND, come back strong!!

Nevadaref Thu Dec 17, 2009 07:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by representing (Post 643142)
read red print above for my thoughts...
Without definite knowledge, i don't take any time off. Defensive coach goes ballistic and says if i don't take time off i have to take away the foul, too.
like some have said, i would have taken at least one second off. If you know for sure that you counted x number of times your hand was extended, then take x seconds off.

in the middle of the fourth, we have a rebounding foul in the double bonus, so we walk from one end to the other and line up the players. I bounce the ball to the shooter and immediately notice the scorekeeper holding up five fingers indicating the player has five fouls (no horn, even though we have walked the length of the floor). Rather than take the ball back, i let the player shoot the ball. After the shot misses, the coach (same coach as above) says his player gets another shot because the other team had an ineligible player on the lane. I respond that he is not ineligible until i notify his coach and the shot stands.
i may be wrong here, but this is what i would have done. Don't interrupt the first shot, balls already given to shooter, and the 5-foul player won't be interrupting flow of game at this point. Then, when tie coach would say that his player should have another shot, i would have said "coach, the player was not involve with any further plays after the clock was dead for his 5th foul. I cannot give your player another shot as it was a fta." it is not one of the five correctable errors.

here is where it gets really ugly. We get the new player in, and i bounce the ball for the second shot, the shot misses, and my partner blows his whistle before team control. Apparently the coach has convinced him he does get another shot. So now we have a whistle with no control, and we have to go to the arrow and the shooting team gets the ball back.
correct! Inadvertent whistle with no team control. I probably would have t'd up the coach for trying to take advantage of the rookie, but that would have depend on the nature of the game. I wasn't there, so i couldn't tell you for sure on t.

now both coaches are ticked. One thinks he should get another shot, the other knows he would have got the rebound and now doesn't get the ball. About two minutes later another player fouls out and the other coach refuses to provide a sub as a protest over the whole thing, so i have to t him up.
technically, you could have ended the game, as that would be a forfeiture brought on by the coach. However, i would have t'd him up too and see if that would get him to put in another player. If not after that, then automatic forfeit.
Guys, do any of you have enough energy to deal with this guy?
His comments indicate that he is cocky, arrogant, brash, a control freak, and grossly incorrect in the rulings which he provides, yet seems to expect us to roll out the welcome mat for the presence of this new king of officiating. I seriously doubt that he is working above the JV level.

I wish the ol' cranky one hadn't departed.

Lah me.

mbyron Thu Dec 17, 2009 08:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 643352)
I wish the ol' cranky one hadn't departed.
Be careful what you wish for.

fullor30 Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 643352)
Guys, do any of you have enough energy to deal with this guy?
His comments indicate that he is cocky, arrogant, brash, a control freak, and grossly incorrect in the rulings which he provides, yet seems to expect us to roll out the welcome mat for the presence of this new king of officiating. I seriously doubt that he is working above the JV level.

I wish the ol' cranky one hadn't departed.

Lah me.
Reminds me of you but your rulings are at least correct;)

Adam Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 643352)
Guys, do any of you have enough energy to deal with this guy?
His comments indicate that he is cocky, arrogant, brash, a control freak, and grossly incorrect in the rulings which he provides, yet seems to expect us to roll out the welcome mat for the presence of this new king of officiating. I seriously doubt that he is working above the JV level.

I wish the ol' cranky one hadn't departed.

Lah me.
I'm working on it. Trying to figure out if I should channel my inner rainmaker, jurassic, or nevada.

representing Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 643352)
Guys, do any of you have enough energy to deal with this guy?
His comments indicate that he is cocky, arrogant, brash, a control freak, and grossly incorrect in the rulings which he provides, yet seems to expect us to roll out the welcome mat for the presence of this new king of officiating. I seriously doubt that he is working above the JV level.

I wish the ol' cranky one hadn't departed.

Lah me.
I was just simply giving my opinion and interpretation of the rules. Yes, I was wrong on the forfeiture thing, because I was thinking of a soccer rule, not basketball. My apologies for that.

And yes, I am doing Varsity games. It's my first season doing Varsity games, but have done them in summer league and scrimmages for a few years.

Adam Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by representing (Post 643463)
I was just simply giving my opinion and interpretation of the rules. Yes, I was wrong on the forfeiture thing, because I was thinking of a soccer rule, not basketball. My apologies for that.

And yes, I am doing Varsity games. It's my first season doing Varsity games, but have done them in summer league and scrimmages for a few years.
Nevada disagrees with other rulings you gave as well.
Personally, I'd stop the clock immediately in the OP.

I'm not overly comfortable with the idea of taking "some" time off, just because you know something came off.

Finally, knowing Nevada as I do, I'm comfortable saying he's not just referring to this thread.

just another ref Thu Dec 17, 2009 03:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 643170)
Gee, would that be because it's not the rule?
What, exactly, do you mean by this? There are provisions for a forfeit under extreme circumstances. I personally did it once.

Adam Thu Dec 17, 2009 03:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 643549)
What, exactly, do you mean by this? There are provisions for a forfeit under extreme circumstances. I personally did it once.
You're correct, but failing to provide a sub within 20 seconds does not qualify.

just another ref Thu Dec 17, 2009 04:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 643552)
You're correct, but failing to provide a sub within 20 seconds does not qualify.
But, then, after being assessed a technical, what if he still doesn't provide the sub?

The phrase "......repeatedly commits technical-foul infractions...." is contained in 5-4-1. At some point you would have no choice.

Adam Thu Dec 17, 2009 04:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 643565)
But, then, after being assessed a technical, what if he still doesn't provide the sub?

The phrase "......repeatedly commits technical-foul infractions...." is contained in 5-4-1. At some point you would have no choice.
Agreed. In this scenario, once it becomes obvious he's going to be an a$$, start it again. He'll have his two if he doesn't comply. I'm not sure the rule really addresses what to do here, though, but this situation could conceivably escalate to forfeiture. First, however, you'd have:
1. first T and the seat belt.
2. second T and ejection.
3. Now, you're dealing with the Assistant coach who just watched you dump his boss. Think he's really going to push you too hard?

jdw3018 Thu Dec 17, 2009 04:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 643566)
Agreed. In this scenario, once it becomes obvious he's going to be an a$$, start it again. He'll have his two if he doesn't comply. I'm not sure the rule really addresses what to do here, though, but this situation could conceivably escalate to forfeiture. First, however, you'd have:
1. first T and the seat belt.
2. second T and ejection.
3. Now, you're dealing with the Assistant coach who just watched you dump his boss. Think he's really going to push you too hard?
That, or an ejected coach who doesn't comply with leaving the gymnasium, in which case you would definitely be supported in declaring a forfeit.

Anyway, there's no support for the forfeit prior to that escalation, IMO.

just another ref Thu Dec 17, 2009 04:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 643566)
Agreed. In this scenario, once it becomes obvious he's going to be an a$$, start it again. He'll have his two if he doesn't comply. I'm not sure the rule really addresses what to do here, though, but this situation could conceivably escalate to forfeiture. First, however, you'd have:
1. first T and the seat belt.
2. second T and ejection.
3. Now, you're dealing with the Assistant coach who just watched you dump his boss. Think he's really going to push you too hard?
There is sometimes no figuring what people might do. My experience went like this.

jr. high girls

Whistle for a violation.

Coach: "YOU'RE CRAZY! YOU ARE CRAZY!!"

whack

Coach: (closer and louder) "YOU'LL NEVER DO THIS TO ME AGAIN!!"

whack (bye)

A female teacher and the principal came to finish the game. She did the coaching. He just sat there. Their team was down and the game was already over for all practical purposes, when a timeout was called with just a few seconds left.

Principal: "This is the second time I've seen you throw a game."

whack

Principal: "Good, call another."

whack

Principal: "Why don't you just go to hell."

ball game

Smitty Thu Dec 17, 2009 04:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 643573)
There is sometimes no figuring what people might do. My experience went like this.

jr. high girls

Whistle for a violation.

Coach: "YOU'RE CRAZY! YOU ARE CRAZY!!"

whack

Coach: (closer and louder) "YOU'LL NEVER DO THIS TO ME AGAIN!!"

whack (bye)

A female teacher and the principal came to finish the game. She did the coaching. He just sat there. Their team was down and the game was already over for all practical purposes, when a timeout was called with just a few seconds left.

Principal: "This is the second time I've seen you throw a game."

whack

Principal: "Good, call another."

whack

Principal: "Why don't you just go to hell."

ball game
This would be the one time I would look forward to filling out the paperwork...

jdw3018 Thu Dec 17, 2009 04:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 643573)
There is sometimes no figuring what people might do. My experience went like this.

jr. high girls

Whistle for a violation.

Coach: "YOU'RE CRAZY! YOU ARE CRAZY!!"

whack

Coach: (closer and louder) "YOU'LL NEVER DO THIS TO ME AGAIN!!"

whack (bye)

A female teacher and the principal came to finish the game. She did the coaching. He just sat there. Their team was down and the game was already over for all practical purposes, when a timeout was called with just a few seconds left.

Principal: "This is the second time I've seen you throw a game."

whack

Principal: "Good, call another."

whack

Principal: "Why don't you just go to hell."

ball game
That is fantastic. Seriously great stuff.

And all that in a Jr. High girls game. Love it.

Back In The Saddle Thu Dec 17, 2009 06:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 643566)
Agreed. In this scenario, once it becomes obvious he's going to be an a$$, start it again. He'll have his two if he doesn't comply. I'm not sure the rule really addresses what to do here, though, but this situation could conceivably escalate to forfeiture. First, however, you'd have:
1. first T and the seat belt.
2. second T and ejection.
3. Now, you're dealing with the Assistant coach who just watched you dump his boss. Think he's really going to push you too hard?
"The referee shall forfeit the game if a team refuses to play after being instructed to do so by any official. The referee may also forfeit a game if any player, team member, bench personnel or coach fails to comply with any technical-foul penalty, or repeatedly commits technical-foul infractions or other acts which make a travesty of the game. If the team to which the game is forfeited is ahead, the score at the time of forfeiture shall stand. If this team is not ahead, the score shall be recorded as 2-0 in its favor." (NFHS 5-4)

If the bonehead still won't give you a replacement after you whack him you could quite logically consider that a refusal to play. It also fits very nicely with "repeatedly commits technical-foul infractions". Both are grounds for a forfeit.

However, if it were me I'd whack him again and send him packing. Hopefully that solves to the problem. As long as his successor gets me a replacement PDQ, we go on (albeit with his successor sporting a leash measurable only in microns). Otherwise we're all going home.

just another ref Thu Dec 17, 2009 06:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty (Post 643575)
This would be the one time I would look forward to filling out the paperwork...
No paperwork for jr. high here.

He followed me, still talking.


"I'm gonna call (my assignor)!"

Good, I thought. Don't forget to mention the "go to hell" part.

mbyron Fri Dec 18, 2009 08:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle (Post 643592)
However, if it were me I'd whack him again and send him packing. Hopefully that solves to the problem. As long as his successor gets me a replacement PDQ, we go on (albeit with his successor sporting a leash measurable only in microns). Otherwise we're all going home.
Me too. In Ohio ejected coaches are subject to a $100 fine and are required to take an online (anger management?) course at their own expense (I've heard costs between $35-50). A second ejection in a season wins an all-expenses-charged trip to visit the commish in Columbus.

I'm not passing up the consolation prizes just to get home early one night. :D

bob jenkins Fri Dec 18, 2009 08:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 643593)
No paperwork for jr. high here.
No paperwork required, or no paperwork allowed?

It's worth a report.

chartrusepengui Fri Dec 18, 2009 09:21am
MS sports in one conference I work at are not official members of the WIAA. 2 yrs ago I had a situation where visiting coach was bickering over every call and crossed the line. WHACK! Now she becomes livid ranting..... and she then walked on the court and in a loud voice told me I didn't have the balls to giver her another one. WHACK! and see ya later.

I wrote report to state even thought they are not official members. The state acted - and quickly. I was sent a copy of the letter sent to the superintendent, principal, athletic director and coach. WOW! It was serious. It even required the school to supply hiring date, information on any parent problems, and scores of the annual rules examination that she should have been taking and any other pertinant information - to be faxed within 2 business days.

My partner and I both received letters of apology from the superintendant of schools, principal and AD within 5 days of the incident. We also received a letter from the state telling us they had done an investigation and taken appropriate steps to ensure this would not happen again. We were stunned by how quickly this took place.

Definately worth the time to make the report.

Welpe Fri Dec 18, 2009 09:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle (Post 643592)

If the bonehead still won't give you a replacement after you whack him you could quite logically consider that a refusal to play. It also fits very nicely with "repeatedly commits technical-foul infractions". Both are grounds for a forfeit.
The comic book (Simplified and Illustrated) has a statement along the lines that after issuing a technical foul to a coach for him/her refusing to send in a sub on a disqualified player, the official should not issue a second technical but should declare a forfeit.

I don't see that exact play in the casebook though and I think I'd prefer to go the route of issuing a second technical.

Back In The Saddle Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:30am
Me too.

just another ref Fri Dec 18, 2009 02:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 643691)
No paperwork required, or no paperwork allowed?

It's worth a report.
There is no paperwork involving jr. high here and no place to send it. Jr. high basketball is unregulated. Use anyone you want to officiate it.

The situation was reported. The principal did call my assignor, but the home coach/principal had already called first on my behalf. I believe his statement was something to this effect: "No matter who was calling, it wouldn't have satisfied these people."

Bottom line is I was not supposed to call games for the school in question until all this blew over, which took years.

rsl Sat Dec 19, 2009 12:37am
My high school schedule in November has been half JV with varsity partners and half freshman/sophomore with rookies. I am learning that when you have a rookie partner the coaches are going to bark, even if the rookies do a reasonable job.

Tonight, with another rookie partner, I called the T in the first quarter, and we had a great game from there on.

A T can be a beautiful thing ...


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