Your call?
 

Player A1 dribbling down the floor.

Player B1 (defense) running down the floor.

A1 dribbles into the path of B1 and both bodies hit the floor.

What do you have?

Htbt



*ETA: Weird....the board software isn't allowing me to post the above in all caps...

you can't picture it with the info I gave you?

The classic answer; A girls JV game. :D

Your sitch sounds like A1 was at the spot before B1. From what I am reading, I would likely have a "push" foul on B1.

A1 needs to give B1 time and distance before setting a screen. I used to get away with this a lot as a point guard.

When a dribbler in his/her progress is moving in a straight-line path, he/she may not be crowded out of that path. An opponent must obtain a legal defensive position in that path to put the responsibility of contact onto the dribbler.

Let me guess. The coach wanted an over-the-back reaching foul. :rolleyes:

10.6.11
If B1 established his path and A1 altered to get in the way and draw contact, time and distance are relevant.

I guess fiasco is right, HTBT.

We have both possibilities covered. So, Johnny Ringo, how did it occur?

Think of it like this:

(Case 1) A1 dribbling the ball straight down the floor.

B1 (defense) running 2-3 fet to the left side of A1.

A1 gets to the division line and creates a path that is angled to the basket and collides with B1 who continued on a straight line?

(Case 2) Or A1 dribbles into the path or body of B1, who is still running in a straight path?

I assume most will always have a foul on B1 in case (1) and possibly want to call offensive foul on A1 in case (2)

LOL you saw my game last night

10-6-6 ...
 

Contact caused by a defensive player who approaches from behind is pushing.

+1 I'm having a really, really hard time buying this as a screen.

Lets try this: What do you have if the dribbler - dribbles into the defensive player while the defensive player and the dribbler are at close to or full speed at mid-court? Both bodies hit the floor.

Two bodies hitting the floor and probably a loose ball.

Who got to the spot of the collision first?

Tough one but probably nothing. Defense wasn't in LGP but also didn't CAUSE the contact so how can we penalize him. If there's any kind of elbow/arm extension or lowering of the shoulder and the defensive player is displaced I could see a PC foul. Otherwise, prob like Nevada said "Two bodies hitting the floor and probably a loose ball."

I see this as potentially applicable to screening rules, depending on a few details. If neither path was adjusted at the last second, then I've got the defense responsible for contact if he wasn't able to establish LGP. If the dribbler adjusts his path at the last second to get in the way of the defender and draw contact, the dribbler is responsible for not giving proper time and distance.

With both bodies on the floor, I'd be hard pressed to stick with a no-call in this situation. I'm okay with a no-call when the only player on the floor is the one responsible for the contact, but that's not the case when both go down.

Agreed, I can see in rare occasions where a no call could be plausible. More times than not someone was a fault for the contact

I've had no-calls with two bodies on the floor, but that's always been a loose ball situation. When a dribbler or shooter is involved, no way. Well, it would be a unique situation.

I'm picturing a play were A1 deliberately dribbles into the path of B1. I can understand the thinking that there must be a call when two bodies hit the floor, but the question must be asked: what did the defender do? If the defender is moving in a path and the offensive player changes his or her path, should the defender apply the air brakes, beam himself or herself to another spot or wiggle his or her nose to vanish?

a) foul on A1
b) foul on B1
c) no call

I would be hard pressed to go with a or b.

In MN, we apply the concept of impede/displace. Since B1 did not have legal guarding position, he was impeding the progress of A1. Therefore, push on B1.

I'd apply the same logic, based on what other veterans have shared with me. Wisconsin wants a call when bodies are on the floor like this situation.

Come on guys ... you have never seen this? A1 dribbles into the path or in front of B1 (possibly stops, but still dribbling) and they crash.

You calling a foul on A1? A1 did initiate the contact, but B1 was not in LGP.

See the play in your head ... what do you have?

Nevada, I know your good - what's your call?

who reached the spot legally first? answer that and you have your answer.

time and distance are not required when guarding an individual with the ball - so why would you give B1 special consideration even if A did "cut them off". A still legally reached that spot ahead of B and is entitled to it without being knocked to the floor.

Consider this: A1 an B1 collide. B1 never had a legal guarding position because they were guarding A2 near by. Why would it make a difference if B1 was actively engaged with another player, or just standing there. Considering the contact resulted on both you may have nothing. Basketball is a contact sport not a collision sport. This certainly happens more often in the girls game than boys.

You're right, if A1 gets there first. I'm seeing the same play tomegun sees; neither player is there first and A1 clearly initiated the contact by veering into B1's path.

I guess I was envisioning that A1 was at the spot first and then banged from behind by B1

This is not the play (see above).

A1 dribbles into the path of where B1 appeared to be running. A1 stops (may have even initiated the contact - (much like offensive player driving to the basket) B1 can't stop and hits A1 ... you have to have a call. Do you call PC on A1 or push on B1?

I know you have all seen this play where the point guard dribbles into the defensive player while running up the floor. But, in this case there is a crash!

If A1 has time to stop before contact, then B1 has time to change course. The onus is on the defense here, IMO.

What is this, a trick question or something?

I will ask again. WHO GOT TO THE SPOT OF THE COLLISION FIRST?

I will ask a new question: what is your agenda? Are you trying to win a bet with someone? You seemed determined to get a particular answer from the forum.

No agenda. Just trying to get an answer. Foul on A1 of B1

Thanks snaqwells, your reasoning was good.

Just see the play and make a call. Is there not enough info for most of you?

No...I would like to know who got the spot of the collision first.

Without that it's a HTBT for me.

...OK, I'll humor you...PUSH on B1! And I'd sell it quite nicely thank-you very much.;)

Flagrant foul on A1 and B1, they're both ejected and so are the coaches and both teams. We all go home.

Obviously A1 got there first and then contact.

I can't imagine you all have never seen this or are having that hard of a time picturing.

But, let me change try - A1 is dribbling slightly faster than B1 is running - side-by-side. A1 dribbls into the path slightly ahead - creating contact and they both go down. Who do you call the foul on?

I have no bet or agenda - just seeking what you all would do. So, no need for goofy remarks. THANKS!

It's just a service we offer. ;)

If A1 displaces B1 from B1's path, then it's a foul on A1 (or a no call).

If A1 gets into the path without causing contact, then the player behind (B1) is responsible for the contact.

Nice Bob, thanks!

Asking who got there first is a goofy remark? What's goofy is asking the same thing over and over and wondering why people can't picture the same thing you do.

I have never had the play in any of my games. Is that goofy also?

BadNewsRef ... trying to answer the question is fine and I appreciate that.

You have never seen a guard with the ball dribble into a defender while running down the court? I just saw it twice today in college games.

OK, I'll give it a try!
 

I've got a foul on A1 as he/she is the one who has created the contact. IMO, LGP has nothing to do is this stich. B1 is entitled to their spot/space on the floor. If A1 violates that, then it's a foul on them.
IOW, B1 got to the spot first.

Lcubed48, A1 starts a dribble just outside the elbow, B1 is running alongside A1 and as A1 gets a few feet from the basket briibles into B1 (or B1's path) and contact is made.

Do you still call a foul on A1?

Does LGP come into play in this situation?

As I picture the play, it is not a LGP situation. The two players are running parallel. A1 moves into B1. Depending on the contact, I have a foul on A1 or nothing.

Go to the head of the class young man. :D

MTD, Sr.

Let us review some of the basics of guarding and screening:

1) The rules of guarding apply to the defense only.

2) The rules of screening apply to all ten (10) players. That even means the player in control of the ball.


Regarding this play, I agree that it is a HTBT play. Having said that, if B1 is running in a straight line and A1 moves into B1's path, A1 must give time and distance when setting his screen against B1.

MTD, Sr.

yes!

no!

If the situation as described is that A is slightly ahead of B then it is Bs responsibility to yeild to A. Not much different that the two players running up the floor then the lead player (A) stops/slows and the behind player runs up their back. Not much different than a player driving down the outside of the lane, veers to the basket and gets clipped by a defensive player (B) running any straight path. Foul on B in all situations. That would be my call based on the rational that no legal guarding position is established, time and distance is not applied because A. no blind screen and B. a speeding player isn't getting screened with no chance of avoidance.

In this case, my imagination would have to call a foul on B or worst case a no call. I cant see a foul on A against who is ahead of a running defensive player that does not have legal guarding position. :eek: