Jewelry rule causes yelling
 

Had an 8th grade girls game last night. One of the girls on the visiting team had earrings. We told the coach before the game that if she wanted to play, she had to remove them. He went over and told her mom. She yelled (yes, yelled) that it was "impossible" to remove them because she just had them put in. The coach looked at us and I told him if she was going to play, they had to be removed. It was a player safety rule and we could not overlook it. He told the mom and she again yelled, this time it was, "That's the stupidest thing I ever heard!" I was tempted to reply, "Then I guess you never watch Fox News", but I just ignored her.

After the game, the mom stormed down out of the bleachers to confront us. She yelled, "I want to talk to you" while pointing directly at me. I grabbed my coat from under the table and quickly put on my earmuffs. I turned to her and said, "Go ahead". She just stared as I picked up my bag and walked out.

Where would this world be without middle school moms? ;)

It is amazing how quickly those "impossible" to remove earrings come out.

Mark, you need to expand your horizons some, I hear plenty of stupid things on CNN and MSNBC too. :D

Better off comes to mind but that's not appropriate to say so I would like to retract that comment

-Josh

This has nothing to do with the jewelry situation, but I just thought I'd mention that the score of this game at the half was H 30, V 15 and the final score was H 33, V 18. Yes, that's right. Each team scored only 3 points in the entire second half. It was really weird.

"Coach, next season you might want to warn your girls at the beginning of the season that they cannot play with earrings, so they should wait until the season is over."

Let us stop this myth right now. It is not impossible to remove earrings or studs that were used to pierce your ear. I had both my ears pierced years ago (before I officiated) and you can take them out for a short period and put them back it. It might hurt, but it is possible. And sports are a privilege, not a right. So it is a simple choice.

Peace

I asked this very question to a cousin who used to pierce ears at her job. She said the same thing. An hour isn't going to do any damage.

Rut, when I saw your name on this thread, I thought for sure it would be a comment about not working either middle school nor girls ball. :)

Happy hour and Christmas parties would be a lot less entertaining.

Nope. For the record, I see this a lot in high school games with boys that give the same line.

Peace

I was at my son's B13/15 Rec practice the other night. As it was ending a G10U team was coming in. I noticed one girl with earings and braided hair with three, wooden 1/2" long beads at the end of each strand of hair.

I had never met the dad. I walked over, introduced myself and asked him if we could talk for a second. I quietly informed him - I'm not sure what the league or Rec Refs will do, but here are the rules.

Mark - unlike your example, he was appreciative of the information as he said he didn't know. He was making the adjustments as I departed.

Sometimes, some of em get it! Sometimes....... :rolleyes:

ALOT less entertaining :cool:

And I've seen MS and HS JV girls choose to sit out rather than remove the earrings. I've seen it in basketball in the past and JV VB this fall. As a coach, I wouldn't be very please with the choice of a player to sit out a game for earrings.

What really pisses me off is when I tell little Julie she has to take her earrings out and the coach says "Don't worry, we'll tape them."

"Uh, Coach. Thats not acceptable. They must be removed."

"Well, the referee last week let us tape them. What, you hate little girls or are you just power mad?" :mad::mad::mad: (Ok, I made that last sentence up.)

I prefer to tell them they cannot play with them in.

True. And in fact I did tell an irate 6th grade Mom, that her daughter didn't have to take them out, but she didn't have to play either. She got the point.

Are you a lawyer? :D

Don't need to be a lawyer. It's simply not true that they must take them out. If they don't mind sitting, they can leave them in.

I had a situation like this in my very first game.

I noticed a girl had a "cast" of some sort on her finger. I asked if I could inspect it. When I looked at it I noticed it was made of hard plastic. I informed the coach that she could not play with it. Out of nowhere, a Mom from the stands comes storming down and I'm thinking to myself: "Oh boy, here we go... what I wonderful way to start off the season." The Mom brings it to the coach's attention that she should just wrap it with padding. The coach says: "Ok, we'll just wrap it." "Coach, that doesn't work either." She can't play with it at all, padded or not.

Mom told her that it was "ok" to not play with it as they were seeing the Doc the next day - whatever. Everything died down from there and we continued....

Ahhh, what a way to start the season. :D

Well, when I am having a conversation with a coach there are certain things that are implied. Such as, the girl is in the layup line in uniform, she intends to play. Well if she does, she has to take the earings out first. I was relaying somthing that actually happened. The coach knew what I was saying. The communication was accomplished. :rolleyes: In my case, I wasn't writing a script.

Another Gotcha. :rolleyes:

I still remember the MS boys game a few years ago when one of the players asked me if he had to remove his nipple ring. :eek:

I agree, it's semantics. They all mean the same thing and the coaches and parents hear them the same way.

One of the things that I don't like to be is the uniform police. But its required and so we do it. But I draw the line at telling some girl her bra is the wrong color.:cool:

How do you check for that? ;)

Both.

But, seriously folks, the coach sets the tone with explaining the rules at the beginning of the season. There should never be any uniform/jewelry issues when the team comes on the floor!

I had a similar situation last year for a Girls' C-Squad game, only it was metal bobbie pins & butterfly clips in the hair. She went through warmups and nothing was said. It wasn't till she came to the table to sub-in, that I noticed it, buzzed the floor officials about it & they gave the coach a warning about not following uniform rules/regulations.

How I understand the rules/regulations, only prewrap, scrunchies, headbands, or hairbands are to be used for hair control. (nothing metal in the hair).

The player went back to the bench, with the coach complaining she'd been allowed to play like that all season until then. The coach put tape over every piece of exposed metal object that couldn't be removed & she was allowed to played after that.

I hate that they allowed VB players to wear 2 inch bobby pins this year. I've gotten the look and the whine several times this. I've been told I have not kept up with the rules because this year "you can wear bobby pins in your hair". (like, where else would you wear them?) They know it's the rule now because "the volleyball officials told them it was new and it was ok." :rolleyes:

I have my cartilage pierced on my left year, and I have not put an earring in it for over a year due to officiating... I just put it in with no problems. And cartilage is supposed to close up faster than ear lobes!

1) Not your job.

2) Taping over it doesn't make it legal.

When she shot her free throws the pink clashed w the green jersey. (in the armholes)

Actually, Most, if not all, the floor officials I've worked with have appreciated the fact that I've kept myself up to date on uniform regulations & catching things that wouldn't of been caught otherwise.

I've done the same thing during dead ball situations where a player is on the floor with the jersey untucked.

Everyone's human & the small things do get missed when there's a lot of action going on. It wouldn't surprise me much if when on the floor, every floor official has, at least once, not noticed a uniform untucked or not to code.

The situation I mentioned happens maybe once every 50-100 games. It's not something that happens all the time. I cannot help if I'm that observant. During that situation, the floor officials were very thankful that I saw that.

Doesn't it help if a person gives friendly reminders for what to look for?

Are You turning in the other team? Because that can make you look adversarial.

When I'm doing scoreboard/timer, I'm neutral, I'll report either team if I see an infraction.

Last year, I almost got my alma mater an administrative technical due to the person doing scorebook had their friends sitting with them & distracting them from their duties. (They got a warning, & other event personnel came to the table asking those not working the table to leave the area)

I have told the floor officials that I've worked with, that although I may be at volunteering at my alma mater, I am neutral & will report what I've seen if it doesn't correspond to rules/regulations no matter who the team. They appreciate that

:eek::eek::eek:

And what exactly is it that you do in this situation?

You say you have read the rule book. Have you read Rule 2 thoroughly?

CHS - While I understand what you're doing and how you're trying to do it, I'm not so sure I want an OOS (Overly Officious Scorekeeper) working the table.....

Wannaree. n wa na REE.
1. A civilian who wants to be a referee without putting their butt on the line.

An unsafe item (like metal hair pins) is one thing - I'm not sure I'm all about a scorer/timer noting that, but to each their own.

But noting an untucked shirt - simply out of line. I wouldn't appreciate it. In fact, I'd likely tell you where to put your observation. And I'd guess most officials telling you they appreciate your noting something like that are simply being nice/tolerant.

I think it was you that mentioned in another thread that you keep a copy of the duties of the scorer and timer at the table. I'd stick to those duties.

The rules I use are those listed off the NFHS Site for public viewing, as well as the Online Rules Clinic on the WIAA Site that's for public viewing.

When I let the floor officials know of the uniform or other thing I notice, I wait until a dead ball or a reporting occurs. If that player is subbed for, I let the book know that their coach needs to let that player know of their jersey. I wish I had access to the case book & rule book, unfortunately I do not.

chseagle, I've gotta ask. Is there a reason why you do no become an official yourself? You seem to be starved for more responsibility/authority/power.

You keep time. Stop the clock when I blow my whistle and start it when I chop. That's your job. Mine is to officiate the game. Never the twain shall meet. :rolleyes: I'm not sure the coaches would view you any differently than a fan screaming from the stands.

I'm training myself not to do things like this all the time. I only do it when it looks to be a safety risk to those on the floor, or it's clearly visible. I believe in the "Out of sight. out of mind", so if it'd hardly noticeable I don't worry about it.

Well, not to sound rude, but if it were my game after the first time I would ask you to refrain from such activity.

I would like to be a floor official, however I am unsure if my health will allow me.

Also right now, I do not have reliable transportation to attend training & meetings or assignments.

Yet you find a way to get to games and do crowd control and provide warnings of untucked jerseys. Interesting.

I'd offer to allow him more time to spend on crowd control.

I'm able to do games at alma mater, cause of not being far away from my house. As I stated in an earlier post, I am training myself not to get so involved on events on the floor, and focusing more on what's right in front of me (scoreboard controls & scorebook).

I have only done the notifying about the untucked jerseys once or twice to the floor officials. Majority of the time, I'll let that team's scorebook know to notify the coach about that player's jersey.

Different people have differing opinons I appreciate that.

How True ...
 

Amen ...

My opinion is it's not your job to do that either.

Frustrating ...
 

I hate it when they say that. It make those officials who worked the earlier games look like they either didn't know the rules, or didn't care to enforce the rules, and it makes it look like I'm being "overly officious".

1. I never believe the coach when they say this.
2. The coach should know better and control what his players wear. I hate that they way for us to actually enforce it.
3. I find it equally disconcerting that the officials let her cover it with tape and play.

If I leave mine out for a week or more, I will have problems.

Rita

The floor officials didn't believe the coach either.

Concerning the taping of the head, the larger hair pins & the hair clips were pulled out of the hair. THe only areas taped over was were the smaller hair pins were located. The floor officials checked the taping to make sure there was no chance of injury before she was allowed back on the floor as a player.

Anyone else reminded of a 1930's newspaper headline by this thread's title? :)

Still shouldn't have been allowed.

Exactly.

(Political commentary deleted.) Edit: Yeah, Fox news is stupid, just agreeing with OP.

I Give Up, Which 1930's Headline ???
 

Your IQ must be at least double mine. And a few people consider me to be smart. Of course those are the people that others consider not to be smart. I bet Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. remembers the headline. Back then he didn't even have to wear reading glasses.

Hmmmm....
 

Watching a B13/15 Rec League boy in warmups this morning and notice he has a wire at his ear. I call him over to tell him to remove it. Coach tells me he's deaf and needs it to hear.

So, coach, me, and boy go to talk to dad. Dad demonstrates that the wire is connected to a disk that connects directly to the boys head and disconnects when barely touched and he demonstrates it....me - :eek:

I ask, can he play without it? He says yes, he just can't hear anything. Wow! I talk to the league commissioner and dad and tell them I will not be responsible for anything that happens if they decide to leave it in. They agree and it wasn't an issue at all.

He's not a "special needs" player, but this was certainly a first for me.

*nods* The most I'll do at the table is remind officials of the league and level-specific no-press rules and the mandatory sub rules when they take effect. I may also have them talk to coaches if the coaches are out of their box and obstructing my view, but I don't have the desire -- or time -- to pick boogers.

I'm glad nothing bad happened, but I hope you realize that this little disclaimer was a waste of breath and wouldn't last 10 seconds in court, had something untoward occurred.

Understand. I am sending a formal note to the league Monday.

Interesting Topic ...
 

I've had hearing aids, but have never had a cochlear implant. I've treated the hearing aids like eyeglasses, keeping in mind that any item, in the referee’s judgment, that constitutes a safety concern is not permitted.

NFHS citations? Comments?

I give up
 

OK - what was the freakin' headline? :confused:

I just tell them "Tonight you have better refs...."

So, what are you saying the legal implications could be? The presence of this device is a violation of the rules. The official allowed it anyway. The device then somehow causes any injury. Now the official is somehow liable. I've still never seen a law quoted on this subject. Judge Wapner (People's Court) often used the phrase "what a reasonable person would do" or something similar. Given all the information here, I do not see it as unreasonable that the device in question was allowed to stay.

The disclaimer/waiver having no value and the official's liability are unrelated.

And, I'm not sure the device is illegal by rule. I'd have to see this wire to determine if I believe it's actually dangerous.

I'm not a lawyer, but the issue is legal liability under tort law. When the plaintiff's lawyers find out that you did not enforce the rules, they'll come after you, your association, your assigner, the league, and anyone else who might have an attachable dollar. Frankly, I don't want to be in that position, whether I win or lose.

The reasonable person standard is a real standard, all right, but reasonable and customary practice in this instance is surely to enforce the rules. I don't see how you can consistently assert both this and this.

I'm As Frustrated As You, But I've Taken My Happy Pills Today ...
 

I've got some extra Xanax XR, if you need it.

Two Words: Billable Hours ...
 

Although I believe that the device may be legal, I also agree with mbyron. Win, or lose, getting sued is an expensive proposition. Even the innocent have to defend themselves.

Reasonable in the eyes of the law and reasonable in the rules of the game would not necessarily have anything to do with each other. A1 gets clotheslined in a crowd and breaks his neck. The official was straightlined, saw nothing, called nothing. Will he get sued for this?

Matty Ross: "I have a good lawyer in J. Noble Daggett."

Ranger LaBoeuf: "She draws him like a gun." ***





***True Grit

Also Big Fan Of The Shootist ...
 

One of my favorite John Wayne movies. Best scene: Rooster Cogburn: "Fill your hands, you son of a *****."

About this: disagree. The reasonable person standard is contextual, and so the issue is what a reasonable person who is an official would do.

About this: I know you well enough to know that you understand the difference between getting a rule wrong and getting a judgment call wrong.

I figured out the headline
 

"Lindburgh Baby Kidnapped!"

Am I correct?

I apologize for exercising people with the headline remark. When I said the thread title reminds me of "a headline from the 30's," I meant a 30's-style headline, not a specific headline.

Hearing Aids - Cochlear Implant
 

I have two children with HA's, both played basketball at various levels, youth, travel, AAU. Though I believe the risk of injury to be zero and they could have easily played with the HA's, they chose not to because sweat was too damaging to the HA. (a set of good digital aids is about $5,000 - $6,000 and not normally covered by insurance) Coaches were fine with hand signals to call plays, their teammates knew to make sure they were aware what was being run.

Only one official over many years, thinking that my son wasn't "playing the whiste" ever said "Son, are you deaf?". To which he replied, "No sir, just hard of hearing". The official couldn't have been more apologetic.

I have not had direct experience with CI's but I've read a lot about them. The substantial risk factor is not injury from the wire itself. Parents of children with CI's are usually advised to avoid contact sports, such as football, where head injury occurs with higher frequency. Internal damage from a blow might only be correctable through additional surgery. (the literature on this is pretty easy to find with a simple Google search) Of course I've seen my share of head-on-head contact during loose balls and kids going down during rebound action and hitting the floor hard. I can't quantify the risk from that.

Having had two hearinig impaired children I understand the importance attached to their participation in sports with their peers and "not feeling different" from the other children.

Having said all of that, it seems that the burden here is on the rules makers to determine if CI's are allowable.

Here you go. I can't believe someone spent the time, energy and moolah on this...sheesh, just take the damn things out.

Patent US20090229619

White, beige, black........
 

Never saw that before. Wonder if the NFHS will allow a manufacturers logo and make sure it matches the color of uniform....:D

Anything having to do with craniotomy is done, the risk is higher afterwards of any neurological injury, even a slight smack to the head could cause problems.

For more information about Cochlear Implants:
Cochlear implant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A similar thing can be said of those with ICDs (Implanted Cardiac Devices). For example, a person with a pacemaker could be playing basketball & during rough post play the pacemaker could become dislodged.

With anything, there's a risk of injury, generally it comes down to the person's exact reasoning for having the device/implant & the doctor overseeing their care on whether they can participate or not.

I've seen worse...
 

A couple weeks back at our varsity (home) tournamant, during our home team's game, while the opponent is in possession of the ball, I hear someone over at the scorers table counting out loudly, "seven, six, five, four, three,..." as the shot clock counts down. I look over there, and it's the frikin official scorer! WTF?!?!?:confused:

Our guy has been doing this job for us a long time, and never heard that out of him before. Someone might have said something to him, as he didn't do it again. I know the guy. We're actually lucky to have him. He's kind of slow, but is very meticulous and takes his job very seriously. He's actually perfect for the job because he seems to feel it's the most important task on the planet. And to him, I suppose it is.

SOrt of off topic I guess. I'm just glad he doesn't look for other things like bobbie pins, untucked jerseys, bra straps, etc. that would be obnoxious:eek:

Like I have mentioned in previous posts, I am getting more & more into doing the "out of sight, out of mind" when it comes to anything uniform related. Only if I deem it a safety hazard anymore do I say anything. The incident with the bobbie pins in the hair, the floor officials were glad that I did see that & report it.

He could of been doing the shot clock countdown as the floor officials didn't notice the time left or the shot clock buzzer isn't very loud.

It's not your job to deem it anything. Quit worrying about it.

He might HAVE been doing it for that reason, but he shoudn't HAVE been doing it for that reason. He must HAVE been confused about his role.

He could HAVE been doing it if the shot clock wasn't working and he was doing it for both teams and with prior arrangement with the teams and the officials.

1) Why does it matter if the officials know how much time is left?

2) How does he know whether or not the officials knew how much time is left?

Girls JV game last night, lining up for the free throw. All of a sudden, ref throws a T. I thought it was a girl making comments about the foul call. But nope, turns out one girl had a barrett (sp?) in. I've never seen that get T'd, seems happen about once a game JV, once every 3 games V, but usually they just stop play and tell them to take it out.

Anyone ever T'd over a bobby pin/barrett?

Nope. And shouldn't since there is no provision to penalize it with a technical foul. Simply have the player leave the game, and tell her she can't play with the pin in.

No, I haven't. The rules don't allow for it. The rule says she can't play, it's not punishable by a T.

Don't blame the official, blame the official scorekeeper and/or crowd control. He/they should have seen the items and notified the official before the T could be issued. ;)

"Coach, I need another one. This one's not ready to play" and I send em off. That's all for me.

I had a play once. BJV game. ~40 secs left as I recall. H down by plenty and coach clears his bench for V's two free-throws. I'm T (two-man) and as I'm observing the first free-throws I notice H2 has a chain on. After first free-throw. TWEEET! "Coach, I need another one. This one's not ready to play" and I sent him off.

Coach sent him to the end of the bench and although he had the opportunity to get him back in the game he didn't.

I always wondered if mom and dad were there watching the game and what they thought...... :rolleyes:

Or he should have least correct the R, and said that is not a T. ROFLOL.

Youch! Good catch! :p

I had a partner do that several years ago, before I knew it was not punishable by a T.

I saw a varsity crew last night issue a T because the home team did not mark their starters. Then they chose not to add one to the team foul count (they couldn't remember whether it was a team foul).

Actually having a verbal agreement with the youths guardian and a witness is acceptable in court. As long as you can prove you did your due diligence to get all the facts and warn against it. It is just much harder to enforce or defend than the written word.

Reasonable Persons test - Defined as conduct that is better than average but less than perfect.

Straight from my lawyers mouth to the thread. (Canadian law here but very similar if not the same as US Law)

No where in the book. Sheesh.

Please tell me by NE Ohio that you belong to the Mahoning Valley Association. I hope what you described wasn't done by a LEBOA or NOOA officiating crew. :eek:

Nope, nope, and nope. So, not to worry, I guess. :cool: