Time-out, 4 return, when can 5th return?
 

I know this probably shouldn't happen if we are all counting before making the ball live; however...

Following a time-out, only 4 players from Team A return. The ball becomes live. According to 10.1.9, if the 5th player returns Team A is charged with a Team Technical Foul for failing to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission.

Here's the question:

When can the 5th player legally return without penalty?

Can the player return during a dead ball, i.e. after a made basket? I say no.

Or does the player have to wait until the next opportunity to "substitute" (even though they are already a player)? I say yes.

I have read this interp from 2007-2008 and note the 'COMMENT' as to why I stated it probably should never happen. However, it doesn't say anything as to when, if any, the player may legally return.

SITUATION 12: Following a (a) charged time-out; or (b) a lengthy substitution process involving multiple substitutions for both teams, A5 goes to the bench and remains there mistakenly believing he/she has been replaced by a substitute. The ball is put in play even though Team A has only four players on the court. Team A is bringing the ball into A's frontcourt when the coach of Team A realizes they have only four players. The coach yells for A5 to return, and he/she sprints onto the court and catches up with play. RULING: In (a), the officials shall stop play and assess a team technical foul for not having all players return to the court at approximately the same time after a time-out. The technical foul counts toward the team-foul count. In (b), the officials may permit play to continue without penalty. A5's return to the court was not deceitful, nor did it provide A5 an unfair positioning advantage on the court. COMMENT: Even though neither situation provided A5 or Team A with an advantage, teams are expected to return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out. The officials should have also followed the prescribed mechanics and counted the number of players on the court, ensuring each team has the legal number of players. (10-1-9; 10-3-3)

Your thoughts?

Good question. My knee jerk reaction is to say the fifth player must wait until the next opportunity to sub. However, one way of reading the (b) case is that the player may return at any time as long as his/her return is not deceitful nor does it provide him/her an advantage.

I agree.

Agree..... however, I'm refering to the (a) case. ;)

Never thought about this before, but the way the rule reads the 5th player cannot return without penalty at all. The technical foul is for the failure of all players to return at the same time, not for one or more players return at the wrong time. The way I read it, the technical should be assessed when the officials realize the team has only 4 on the floor, whether the 5th player actually returns or not.

Correct.

DELAYING RETURN FOLLOWING TIME-OUT
10.1.9 SITUATION: Following a charged time-out Team B is still with their
coach on the sideline when the official sounds the whistle to indicate play will
resume. Four players of B return to the court just in time to play defense as A1
attempts an unsuccessful three-pointer. B1 rebounds and throws a long pass to
B5 who enters the court just in time to catch the pass. RULING: A technical foul
is immediately charged to Team B for failing to have all players return to the court
at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission. While it is
true the entire team may be off the court while the procedure is being used, once
a team responds, all players must enter the court at approximately the same time.

The 5th player returns during the T.

This is what happens when I reply to posts here when I should be sleeping instead. :o

I disagree that B should be charged a T once the official(s) realize they only have 4 players. It's a disadvantage to play with 4 players so let them be at the disadvantage they put themselves in. I believe the T should be charged once B5 enters the court. If they want to wait to "sub" the 5 player in, let them do that. JMO

-Josh

Your opinion is logical, but not supported by rule.

Not sure I agree it's a technical foul immediately once the officials notice there are only 4 players. I think once the 5th returns that's when you can say that they all didn't return at approximately the same time. Without the 5th returning, who is to say that they didn't all return at the same time? Following the time-out, maybe they only had 4 players available to play. How are we to know? If it's charged immediately once the officials notice there are only 4 players, why did they offer the piece of information in red in the case play?

DELAYING RETURN FOLLOWING TIME-OUT
10.1.9 SITUATION: Following a charged time-out Team B is still with their
coach on the sideline when the official sounds the whistle to indicate play will
resume. Four players of B return to the court just in time to play defense as A1
attempts an unsuccessful three-pointer. B1 rebounds and throws a long pass to
B5 who enters the court just in time to catch the pass. RULING: A technical foul is immediately charged to Team B for failing to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission. While it is true the entire team may be off the court while the procedure is being used, once a team responds, all players must enter the court at approximately the same time.

In this particular case play, the return of B5 is what calls the matter to the officials' attention, but, nevertheless, the return is not what the technical foul is for. The interp quoted above specifies that this call is not based on advantage gained, but rather the simple fact that the players must all return at the same time.

I'm going to say an immediate T once discovered.

Scenario.......... 'A' fails to have five players return to floor. With 30 seconds to go,they have a one point lead and are in a stall situation. A coach realizes they are missing a player and holds A5 from entering court as a T is forthcoming.

Assuming your logic regarding T, if I'm A coach, A5 is not going in, period.

My point is how do we know until the 5th returns that all of them didn't return at the same time? There is nothing that prevents a team from playing with 4 players provided there isn't an available sub. Also, there isn't anything that prevents a team to return to 5 players if a player becomes available. If a player isn't available it's not up to us to question as to why they aren't available.... am I spinning or do you see what I'm getting at?

I see what you're getting at, but you're trying too hard. If a team is going to play with 4, but has players on the bench, we should be asking the coach for a 5th. If he then tells us none of them are available, fine, whatever.

But, that's not the case in this situation. Stop the game, call the T, if the coach wants to tell you nobody else was available you can decide whether or not to 'uncall' it.

It notes that for Art. 7 in 10-1; however, not Art. 9.

I would say that if not specified otherwise, it is inferred that this, like most infractions, is penalized when discovered, when it happens, etc. I think the important part is what is not said:

Penalized if/when the 5th player returns to the court.

I'm going with tjones on this one.

It says that ALL players must return at the same time not FIVE players.

The case play has the T called when the slacker player enters the court.

Double Trouble ???
 

I'm getting really confused trying to follow this thread on two different forums. I've been tempted to do this, and I may have even done it, but I'm not going to even think about doing it again.

10-1-9: A team shall not fail to have all players return to the court...........


3-1-1: Each team consists of five players..........




If five don't return, they ain't all there.

Now don't just post part of 3-1-1. Read the "Note" below the section.

tjones' point is this. You cannot discover that all eligible players didn't return to the floor until one comes in late. To do so would be guessing on who is injured, sick, has a uniform problem, blood problem, etc. If you call a technical because a kid is puking on the bench and didn't come out of a timeout, I think you are wrong. Now if he pukes, then runs in after the throw-in, whack him.

A team doesn't always consits of five players though, that's the point that myself and tjones is getting at. A team can play (after the start of the game) with four if they wish, unless there is a rule I don't know about.

-Josh

A team can play with four only if that is all they have available. There is no indication that this is true in the case at hand.

Yes, under "extraordinary" circumstances a team may play with four. However, that is reading something into the rule and/or case that isn't specified.

Just to clarify: a team may not play with less than five if they have five players available. A team may not choose to play with less than five.

That said, if a coach tells you only four of his players are available to play (players could be unavailable for a variety of reasons we don't have the authority to rule on), then you would continue the game with less than five on the court.

It's The Mark Padgett Clause ...
 

NFHS 10-3-4-PENALTY EXCEPTION: If said player pukes on the shoes of the head coach, no technical foul will be charged for this specific act.

In reference to the situation, please assume the following:
The officials should have, but did not, check to see if the coach had five available players. The officials should not have, but did, put the ball in play without checking.

Now the question remains. Do you stop play and assess a technical while only four are on the floor? Say you do and then find out that the coach's only available player became ill during the timeout and is not available now. Now you have to say you take back the 'T". That just doesn't flow, does it?

I say that when the fifth returns, then you can "discover" that all available players didn't return at the same time and you can whack him then. Actually, by rule, assuming that the fifth just forgot he was still in the game and didn't return, he could never return without penalty, could he????? Now, if he became unavailable because he had to change a bloody uniform and could not before the TO ended, I say he could return at the next opportunity to "sub in".

Stop the game. Inform the coach that you are assessing a T for not having 5 return to the court.

If he tells you he doesn't have five available players, then just don't assess the T. This isn't likely to happen.

Again, the T is not for the 5th player returning, it's for the 5th player not returning with the others.

This is what I would do.

And, I agree with whoever said that the rule SHOULD BE that the team just continues to play with 4, but that's not what the rule IS..

I can't? I think I can, because I can see when a team has just 4 players.

As I read this, it seems that you're trying to penalize the wrong infraction. By waiting until a player enters late, you're trying to penalize that player for returning late.

But the rule specifies penalizing the team for failing to return to together. That team technical foul is NOT charged to the player who returned late.

So if 4 are on the floor, I don't need to know which player is returning late or why. The team has committed an infraction by failing to return as a team, regardless of the reason.

If there's an issue such as illness or injury, we deal with that by following the rules concerning time-outs and substitutions, not by suspending other rules about returning to the floor.

I understand what you are saying. I just think that you can never recognize that all 5 AVAILABLE players returned. To do so would make you clairvoyant. You may be able to make an assumption, but nothing else.

I know what the rule is. However, it also doesn't say that FIVE players have to return to the floor.

Becasue if it did, someone like you would point out that the rule couldn't be followed if the team didn't have five players. Lah me.

Each rule is written assuming "nothing else" happened. And, since another rule requires 5 players, the "nothing else" in this case is 5 players.

Sometimes, you just need to referee.

Now, Either Of Us Can Toss ...
 

Unless you're the umpire, in which case, sometimes you just need to umpire.

This conversation has really taken a turn for the bizarre. While we're at it, we need to consider the possibility of the rapture happening, that during the time out suddenly all but four eligible players are taken to heaven. The head coach, without question, would be left behind ;)

From NFHS 6-1-2 NOTE, "Any rules statement is made on the assumption that no infraction is involved unless mentioned or implied. If such infraction occurs, the rule governing it is followed."

Enforce the rules as written, without reading weird, wild, wacky stuff into them. If weird, wild, wacky stuff does happen, then deal with that when it arises.

Exactly....not T as long as long as the fifth doesn't return. The "immediately" is upon the ruturn of B5. Not immediately upon the official noticing only 4.

Disagree 100% as would anyone well-versed in English grammar.

Agree to disagree.