End of game situation

[Back In The Saddle]

One additional question...

What if my partner had a count going for some reason (maybe he's a little eager with the throw-in count)? I then have everything I had before as relates to definite knowledge, but I've also got an official's count.

Can I put time back on the clock now? If not, why not? If so, how much?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

One additional question...

What if my partner had a count going for some reason (maybe he's a little eager with the throw-in count)? I then have everything I had before as relates to definite knowledge, but I've also got an official's count.

Can I put time back on the clock now? If not, why not? If so, how much?

Is your partner a metro-gnome?

[Back In The Saddle]

No more than you or I.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Is your partner a metro-gnome?

[Back In The Saddle]

Can I get that at Honig's?

[M&M Guy]

BITS, maybe I should've been a little more specific - are there any specific words used in the rules, under the section on correcting timing mistakes, having to do with approximate, guess, etc.? No, of course not.

And, yes, I agree with you that an official's count is not exact. However, as Bob pointed out a while back, "definite information" is not the same as "exact". Isn't there a case play somewhere that had the play where A1 is dribbling in the backcourt after a throw-in, more than 10 seconds runs off the clock, but because the official's count was still at 9, there is no violation?

To me, case play 5.10.1 Sit B is very interesting, and gives a pretty good idea of what the committee feels is definite information: "Team A leads by one point when they inbound the ball in their backcourt with 12 seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. A1's throw-in pass is to A2, who dribbles in the backcourt until the horn sounds. The trail official does not make a 10-second call because he/she "lost" the count. RULING: The game is over. The clock may not be reset because there are no rule provisions to do this. If the count was not accurate, or not made, it cannot be corrected. There is no provision of an error made in the official's accuracy in counting seconds".

Think about that play. How many of us would use "definite information" to go back, know we should've had a 10-second violation, put 2 seconds back on the clock, and give it to B for a throw-in? But we cannot do that. We know definitely that is what should've happened, but it is not "definite information" as per the rules. The only provisions for correcting a timing error is by an official seeing a specific time on the clock, or by an official count, whether visible or internal.

This play is also another example of my theory about nothing good coming from an official's screw-up. We can't make it "fair", we can only do what the rules tell us. Bottom line: don't screw up, and you won't have to use these stupid rulings.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

BITS, maybe I should've been a little more specific - are there any specific words used in the rules, under the section on correcting timing mistakes, having to do with approximate, guess, etc.? No, of course not.

And, yes, I agree with you that an official's count is not exact. However, as Bob pointed out a while back, "definite information" is not the same as "exact". Isn't there a case play somewhere that had the play where A1 is dribbling in the backcourt after a throw-in, more than 10 seconds runs off the clock, but because the official's count was still at 9, there is no violation?

To me, case play 5.10.1 Sit B is very interesting, and gives a pretty good idea of what the committee feels is definite information: "Team A leads by one point when they inbound the ball in their backcourt with 12 seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. A1's throw-in pass is to A2, who dribbles in the backcourt until the horn sounds. The trail official does not make a 10-second call because he/she "lost" the count. RULING: The game is over. The clock may not be reset because there are no rule provisions to do this. If the count was not accurate, or not made, it cannot be corrected. There is no provision of an error made in the official's accuracy in counting seconds".

Think about that play. How many of us would use "definite information" to go back, know we should've had a 10-second violation, put 2 seconds back on the clock, and give it to B for a throw-in? But we cannot do that. We know definitely that is what should've happened, but it is not "definite information" as per the rules. The only provisions for correcting a timing error is by an official seeing a specific time on the clock, or by an official count, whether visible or internal.

This play is also another example of my theory about nothing good coming from an official's screw-up. We can't make it "fair", we can only do what the rules tell us. Bottom line: don't screw up, and you won't have to use these stupid rulings.

So, what you're saying is that no matter what an official's count is or how accurate it is, it is considered to be official...that while any count is really only an approximation it is still official. Therefore, if an official has a "count" of the final fractions of a second, it is official and adequate, even though it may not be accurate/precise. Therefore, if an official deems that 0.4 seconds elapsed through a mental count, then that information is definite knowledge and can/shall be used to put 0.4 seconds back on the clock.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

So, what you're saying is that no matter what an official's count is or how accurate it is, it is considered to be official...that while the count is really only an approximation but it is still official.

I'm not saying it, but the rules are.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Therefore, if an official has a "count" of the final fractions of a second, it is official and adequate, even though it may not be accurate/precise. Therefore, if an official deems that 0.4 seconds elapsed through a mental count, then that information is definite knowledge and can/shall be used to put 0.4 seconds back on the clock.

Let's see...backcourt count is done in 1-sec. intervals. Closely-guarded count is done in 1-sec. intervals. Throw-in count is done in 1-sec. intervals. 3-sec. count is done in...hmm...1-sec. intervals. (I see a pattern developing...) All of these counts can be done verbally and visibly (although the 3-sec. count should not be done that way).

I can't wait to see you post on YouTube your tenth-of-a-second verbal and visible count, to verify that you can, indeed, count that way. In the meantime, nice try.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

BITS, maybe I should've been a little more specific - are there any specific words used in the rules, under the section on correcting timing mistakes, having to do with approximate, guess, etc.? No, of course not.

And, yes, I agree with you that an official's count is not exact. However, as Bob pointed out a while back, "definite information" is not the same as "exact". Isn't there a case play somewhere that had the play where A1 is dribbling in the backcourt after a throw-in, more than 10 seconds runs off the clock, but because the official's count was still at 9, there is no violation?

To me, case play 5.10.1 Sit B is very interesting, and gives a pretty good idea of what the committee feels is definite information: "Team A leads by one point when they inbound the ball in their backcourt with 12 seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. A1's throw-in pass is to A2, who dribbles in the backcourt until the horn sounds. The trail official does not make a 10-second call because he/she "lost" the count. RULING: The game is over. The clock may not be reset because there are no rule provisions to do this. If the count was not accurate, or not made, it cannot be corrected. There is no provision of an error made in the official's accuracy in counting seconds".

Think about that play. How many of us would use "definite information" to go back, know we should've had a 10-second violation, put 2 seconds back on the clock, and give it to B for a throw-in? But we cannot do that. We know definitely that is what should've happened, but it is not "definite information" as per the rules. The only provisions for correcting a timing error is by an official seeing a specific time on the clock, or by an official count, whether visible or internal.

This play is also another example of my theory about nothing good coming from an official's screw-up. We can't make it "fair", we can only do what the rules tell us. Bottom line: don't screw up, and you won't have to use these stupid rulings.

In the case play you sited, the clock was started properly. There is no timing mistake on the part of the clock operator. There is no rule support for correcting an official's timing mistake. And for good reason. We don't want to open a can of worms by forcing the officials to be more accurate with their timing. Can you imagine the pain it would cause?!?!?!? In the OP the clock operator didn't stop the clock in time. So we can put time back on the clock in this scenario. Big difference.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rwest

In the case play you sited, the clock was started properly. There is no timing mistake on the part of the clock operator. There is no rule support for correcting an official's timing mistake. And for good reason. We don't want to open a can of worms by forcing the officials to be more accurate with their timing. Can you imagine the pain it would cause?!?!?!? In the OP the clock operator didn't stop the clock in time. So we can put time back on the clock in this scenario. Big difference.

If you have definite knowledge of how much time to put back on, you're right. If Camron has a mental count going indicating quarter seconds, he can put it back on. But the scenario being played here has no such animal, no official had a mental count going in any intervals.

Without a count of some sort, you have no basis for putting time back on. We may not have a precise definition of "definite knowledge," but I'm going to stick my neck out and say one thing it definitively cannot mean is "best guess."