End of game situation

Back In The Saddle

M&M Guy wrote
Also, if the clock does not show tenths, and you know the display had 0 while the horn had not sounded, then you cannot put 1 second back on because you would be putting back more time than what is allowed.

M&M Guy wrote
Either way, in the case of a clock that does not show tenths, how can you justify putting 1.0 seconds on the clock when there could actually be .5 left? How is that "fair" to the other team, letting the one team have twice the amount of correct time left, just to put "something" back up?

If the clock doesn't do 10ths of a second, 1 second resolution is the best you've got. So it's 1 second, or 0 seconds. Take your pick. Welcome back to the 1980's.

M&M Guy wrote
Now can you honestly tell me you know the difference between .9 seconds and .6, for example?

Can you honestly tell me your arm swing is exactly 5 seconds and not 4.8 or 5.5 seconds? How close to three seconds is your mental "one-thousand-one"? The rules allow for some pretty inaccurate "definite information," giving tacit acknowledgement that "the best we can do" is the best that we've got.

bbcof83 wrote
I am not going to allow a "slow trigger finger" by the timer to end a well contested game.

We haven't even addressed the situation where the V team requests the time out and the home scorer lets the clock run out. This doesn't always happen innocently.

BadNewsRef wrote
I would love hear the discussion with Team B's coach explaining how you came up with your best estimate, especially if that coach knows the rule.

Snaqwells wrote
You're putting yourself into a position of having to either lie to the coach or tell him you're guessing....Which are you going with?

I'm going to get both coaches together very briefly, and I am going to tell them what we're going to do. We're not going to discuss how we came to our decision about how much time to put back on the clock.

Snaqwells wrote
If you guess 1 second, and the replay later shows .8 seconds when you blew your whistle, you're screwed.

I am equally screwed if the replay shows there is .8 seconds and my crew ended the game because we didn't know how much time to put on the clock. Sure, we'd be right by rule. But we're still screwed.

bbcof83 wrote
You're probably right. It just makes me squirm thinking about it. I guess I just need to make sure this NEVER happens to me.

Amen, Brother! (Or is it Sister?)

rfp wrote
But in my sitch, there were no errors. The timer responded as quickly as he could once he heard the whistle. Despite his immediate reaction, the horn signaled the end of the period. The officials did look up after blowing the whistle -- they saw 0:00.0. No mistake on anyone's part. But the officials and everyone else knows that the whistle came first followed very shortly by the final horn. There is "definite knowledge" that there was a lag between the whistle and the horn. The unknown is how much of a time difference. So the questions is, can you have definite knowledge without knowing the exact amount of time?

I submit that all of that information contributes to "definite knowledge". You know there was a discernible gap between the whistle and the horn. You know that the time on the clock when the whistle was blown was the amount of time it takes to blow then look. You know the timer reacted immediately, but was unable to stop the clock in time. Put all that together, and you should be able to come to an estimate that is accurate to 1 or 2 10ths, and a heck of a lot more accurate than are allowed when timing something with an arm swing.

just another ref wrote
The phrase in the rule is "definite knowledge relative to the time involved."
Without knowing an exact amount, there is no definite knowledge.

Funny how inexact "definite knowledge" can be. 😉

rfp

Put one second back on the clock. His position is you have definite knowledge that there is some time left. Since the clock provides no more precision than 1 second, that's what you should go with.

I don't know that he can point to a rule as the basis for this decision, but there it is.

bob jenkins

rfp wrote
Put one second back on the clock. His position is you have definite knowledge that there is some time left. Since the clock provides no more precision than 1 second, that's what you should go with.

I don't know that he can point to a rule as the basis for this decision, but there it is.

I'm a little confused on how "requesting a time out" is different from "a foul near the end of the game."

And case 5.6.2D (although it complicates the situation a little with subsequent technical fouls) indicates that no time is put back on the clock.

NCAA has a similar interp, except that in games with a monitor, we can put time back based on that review.

rwest

bob jenkins wrote
I'm a little confused on how "requesting a time out" is different from "a foul near the end of the game."

And case 5.6.2D (although it complicates the situation a little with subsequent technical fouls) indicates that no time is put back on the clock.

NCAA has a similar interp, except that in games with a monitor, we can put time back based on that review.

If we have a foul at the end of the game and the clock runs out, if it is a shooting foul and the game can be won or tied with the made free throws then the game is not over and we shoot the free throws. If we have definite knowledge we put time back on the clock. If not, shoot the free throws with the lane cleared.

If the coach calls a time out and we grant it prior to the buzzer then we know that the game is not over. We granted the time out before time had expired. How can the game be over?

I suggest there is either a hole in the rules or we have to liberally (I can't believe I'm using the L word!) interpret definite knowledge. The game can't be over and so there must be some time on the clock. How much time I don't know, but the game is not over! It can't be. Put some time up on the clock and finish the game.

The only other solution is to say sorry coach, game over!
What happens if the visiting coach is the one who called time out and the timer let the clock run out knowing the clock doesn't show tenths of seconds? Sorry coach, I don't have definit knowledge how much time was on the clock. So since I don't have definite knowledge, game is over. That's not acceptable.

M&M Guy

Back In The Saddle wrote
If the clock doesn't do 10ths of a second, 1 second resolution is the best you've got. So it's 1 second, or 0 seconds. Take your pick. Welcome back to the 1980's.

Well, then I'm taking off my purple leisure suit, putting on my striped shirt with a collar, and declaring the game over because back in the 1980's there was the rule on lag time, where the official was required to allow 1 second to run off because of a timer's reaction time.

Back In The Saddle wrote
Can you honestly tell me your arm swing is exactly 5 seconds and not 4.8 or 5.5 seconds? How close to three seconds is your mental "one-thousand-one"? The rules allow for some pretty inaccurate "definite information," giving tacit acknowledgement that "the best we can do" is the best that we've got.

I agree, but there is still a difference between "accurate" and "definite", and the rules allow for an official's count, even if it is inaccurate.

Look at case play 5.10.1 Sit. B - The ball is inbounded by A in the backcourt with 12 seconds left, A2 continues to dribble in the backcourt the official loses track of his count, and the clock expires. The ruling is the game is over. How come? If I was to do what's "fair", I would say there should've been a 10-second violation, put 2 seconds on the clock, and give the ball to B for a throw-in. But that is not what happens.

Back In The Saddle wrote
I am equally screwed if the replay shows there is .8 seconds and my crew ended the game because we didn't know how much time to put on the clock. Sure, we'd be right by rule. But we're still screwed.

Screwed? Yes in both cases. But I would rather screw up a mechanic than a rule. And putting up time without definite information as provided by the rules would be screwing up a rule.

Back In The Saddle wrote
I submit that all of that information contributes to "definite knowledge". You know there was a discernible gap between the whistle and the horn. You know that the time on the clock when the whistle was blown was the amount of time it takes to blow then look. You know the timer reacted immediately, but was unable to stop the clock in time. Put all that together, and you should be able to come to an estimate that is accurate to 1 or 2 10ths, and a heck of a lot more accurate than are allowed when timing something with an arm swing.

I understand your thinking. However, how do you explain 5-6-2, Art. 2 & 3?

Back In The Saddle wrote
Funny how inexact "definite knowledge" can be. 😉

Not according to the rules. 😉

Raymond

We need to remember there are "dictionary" definitions and "rule book" definitions. When they don't jibe you go with the rule book definition.

rwest

M&M Guy wrote
Well, then I'm taking off my purple leisure suit, putting on my striped shirt with a collar, and declaring the game over because back in the 1980's there was the rule on lag time, where the official was required to allow 1 second to run off because of a timer's reaction time.

I agree, but there is still a difference between "accurate" and "definite", and the rules allow for an official's count, even if it is inaccurate.

Look at case play 5.10.1 Sit. B - The ball is inbounded by A in the backcourt with 12 seconds left, A2 continues to dribble in the backcourt the official loses track of his count, and the clock expires. The ruling is the game is over. How come? If I was to do what's "fair", I would say there should've been a 10-second violation, put 2 seconds on the clock, and give the ball to B for a throw-in. But that is not what happens.

Screwed? Yes in both cases. But I would rather screw up a mechanic than a rule. And putting up time without definite information as provided by the rules would be screwing up a rule.

I understand your thinking. However, how do you explain 5-6-2, Art. 2 & 3?

Not according to the rules. 😉

When you blow your whistle and then look up at the clock, there is a slight delay. We never know exactly what time was on the clock. We know what time was on the clock after we blew our whistle. That is the time we use for definite knowledge purposes. If we blow our whistle to grant a time out and then the buzzer sounds, we have definite knowledge that there was time on the clock. However, if the clock doesn't show tenths then we don't know exactly how much time to put on the clock.

For those who suggest we don't put time on the clock, what are you going to do if the clock operator is biased and allows the clock to run out knowing that the clock doesn't show tenths of a second? And also knowing you can't put time on the clock if you don't have definite knowldedge. Sorry coach, you got hosed by the home team clock operator but since I don't have definite knowledge, game over. Now, what happens if this is a state championship?

It could happen!

M&M Guy

rwest wrote
If we have a foul at the end of the game and the clock runs out, if it is a shooting foul and the game can be won or tied with the made free throws then the game is not over and we shoot the free throws. If we have definite knowledge we put time back on the clock. If not, shoot the free throws with the lane cleared.

Agreed.

rwest wrote
If the coach calls a time out and we grant it prior to the buzzer then we know that the game is not over. We granted the time out before time had expired. How can the game be over?

You tell me - what does rule 5-6-2, Art. 2 & 3 say about that very question?

rwest wrote
I suggest there is either a hole in the rules or we have to liberally (I can't believe I'm using the L word!) interpret definite knowledge. The game can't be over and so there must be some time on the clock. How much time I don't know, but the game is not over! It can't be. Put some time up on the clock and finish the game.

The only other solution is to say sorry coach, game over!
What happens if the visiting coach is the one who called time out and the timer let the clock run out knowing the clock doesn't show tenths of seconds? Sorry coach, I don't have definit knowledge how much time was on the clock. So since I don't have definite knowledge, game is over. That's not acceptable.

There isn't a hole in the rules. The rules tell us exactly how to handle the situation. If the officials screw up and do not have definite information, as defined by the rules, then there is nothing, by rule, that can be done.

Moral: Have a count, or look at the clock in these situations. Otherwise, follow the rules. Pretty simple, actually. Whether of not we agree with them.

If you don't think the rules are "fair", then work to be on the committee and change them. Otherwise, it makes it hard for those officials that come in after your game and follow the rules, and all they hear is, "The officials in the last game let us do this..." I don't think it's "fair" that a player and team should be penalized because their AD (or even a secretary) didn't order the proper uniform on time, but I don't get the option of letting it slide this time, because it's just not fair. I get paid to enforce the rules, as written. No more, no less.

M&M Guy

rwest wrote
When you blow your whistle and then look up at the clock, there is a slight delay. We never know exactly what time was on the clock. We know what time was on the clock after we blew our whistle. That is the time we use for definite knowledge purposes.

Agreed. What's your point here?

rwest wrote
If we blow our whistle to grant a time out and then the buzzer sounds, we have definite knowledge that there was time on the clock. However, if the clock doesn't show tenths then we don't know exactly how much time to put on the clock.

Again, can you explain rule 5-6-2 Art. 2 & 3, and how it applies in this very instance?

rwest wrote
For those who suggest we don't put time on the clock, what are you going to do if the clock operator is biased and allows the clock to run out knowing that the clock doesn't show tenths of a second? And also knowing you can't put time on the clock if you don't have definite knowldedge. Sorry coach, you got hosed by the home team clock operator but since I don't have definite knowledge, game over. Now, what happens if this is a state championship?

It could happen!

If it really is a state championship game, what are the odds the home team will supply the clock operator? What are the odds this game will be played in a gym with a clock that does not show tenths? What are the odds the officials will not be good enough to know the proper rules and mechanics to make sure this situation does not occur? What if a meteor hits right at that exact moment? 🙄

rwest

M&M Guy wrote
Agreed.

You tell me - what does rule 5-6-2, Art. 2 & 3 say about that very question?

There isn't a hole in the rules. The rules tell us exactly how to handle the situation. If the officials screw up and do not have definite information, as defined by the rules, then there is nothing, by rule, that can be done.

Moral: Have a count, or look at the clock in these situations. Otherwise, follow the rules. Pretty simple, actually. Whether of not we agree with them.

If you don't think the rules are "fair", then work to be on the committee and change them. Otherwise, it makes it hard for those officials that come in after your game and follow the rules, and all they hear is, "The officials in the last game let us do this..." I don't think it's "fair" that a player and team should be penalized because their AD (or even a secretary) didn't order the proper uniform on time, but I don't get the option of letting it slide this time, because it's just not fair. I get paid to enforce the rules, as written. No more, no less.

Visitors down by 1 after home team makes a basket. Clock operator is a homer. Visitors call time out and you grant it after time has gone below 1 second but before the buzzer sounds. Clock operator lets the clock run out.

Game over? You heard the request for a time out. You granted it while there still was time on the clock, just not showing on the score board.
You have definite knowledge the game is not over and that time was still on the clock. I have definite knowledge that there was less than 1 second but more than 0 seconds on the clock.

M&M Guy

rwest wrote
Visitors down by 1 after home team makes a basket. Clock operator is a homer. Visitors call time out and you grant it after time has gone below 1 second but before the buzzer sounds. Clock operator lets the clock run out.

Game over? You heard the request for a time out. You granted it while there still was time on the clock, just not showing on the score board.
You have definite knowledge the game is not over and that time was still on the clock. I have definite knowledge that there was less than 1 second but more than 0 seconds on the clock.

What does the rule book say you should do?

rwest

M&M Guy wrote
Agreed. What's your point here?

Again, can you explain rule 5-6-2 Art. 2 & 3, and how it applies in this very instance?

If it really is a state championship game, what are the odds the home team will supply the clock operator? What are the odds this game will be played in a gym with a clock that does not show tenths? What are the odds the officials will not be good enough to know the proper rules and mechanics to make sure this situation does not occur? What if a meteor hits right at that exact moment? :rolleyes:

We never have definite knowlegde. Ever!

TonyT

Snaqwells wrote
"It's the right thing to do, coach."

Again, if we didn't see the clock, game over.

If you know for sure that the whistle beat the horn how can you not put at least 1 second back on the clock? By the time you looked at the clock there would of been some time run off, as was in this case the ears beat the eyes.

rwest

M&M Guy wrote
What does the rule book say you should do?

If you have definite knowledge. I have definite knowledge that less than 1 second but more than 0 seconds was left in the game.

M&M Guy

rwest wrote
If you have definite knowledge. I have definite knowledge that less than 1 second but more than 0 seconds was left in the game.

Is that how the rule book defines "definite knowledge"? If so, what rule or case play are you using?

M&M Guy

TonyT wrote
If you know for sure that the whistle beat the horn how can you not put at least 1 second back on the clock? By the time you looked at the clock there would of been some time run off, as was in this case the ears beat the eyes.

...sigh...

Has anyone looked at rule 5-6-2 yet?

mbyron

M&M Guy wrote
...sigh...

Has anyone looked at rule 5-6-2 yet?

Rule 5-6:
"ART. 2 . . . Each quarter or extra period ends when the signal sounds indicating time has expired."

M&M Guy

mbyron wrote
Rule 5-6:
"ART. 2 . . . Each quarter or extra period ends when the signal sounds indicating time has expired."

...trying...hard...not...to...explode...

Oh, what the hell: shut up. 😀

Adam

flaref wrote
sorry about the harshness...I'm actually very mild mannered...and not nearly as cocky as it may appear in my writing...but if somebody asks me a question...I'll give em my honest answer...my solution here works correctly 99.999% of the time...I will take responsibility for the one time in the several thousand circumstances that it wouldn't. If I have DEFINATE KNOWLEDGE that the whistle beat the horn, then the game can't possibly end.

I think you misunderstood my response. I'm trying to be careful in my response, because I don't like to question the integrity of other officials. I'm assuming you may have worded it incorrectly or something, but it came across that you'd be willing to say you had definite knowledge when you really didn't. I have a problem with that, and since you seem to value direct responses and honest opinions; there it is.

Adam

TonyT wrote
If you know for sure that the whistle beat the horn how can you not put at least 1 second back on the clock? By the time you looked at the clock there would of been some time run off, as was in this case the ears beat the eyes.

If I look up and see 1 on the clock, I'll put it up there. If I look up and see 0, there's nothing I can do. Definitely knowledge is the key here, and we don't have it. Definite knowledge, at the minimum, means you have a minimum number to put up on the clock. If, when I blow my whistle, I look up and see the clock running and .8 on the clock as it ticks down, I'll put .8 up even though I know there was more time. I don't know how much more, so I can't put it up there. In this scenario, if I look up and it's already down to 0, I have no knowledge of how much time to put up.

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