Letter to Big South Commish regarding Joe Forte
 

Commissioner Kyle Kallander
Big South Conference
7233 Pineville-Matthews Road, Suite 100
Charlotte, N.C. 28226

October 17, 2009

Dear Commissioner Kallander:

Greetings. It is with great displeasure that I am writing you about an issue that some officials feel is unfair and unprofessional treatment that is being displayed on and to some of your officials within your conference regarding officiating men’s basketball.

Unfortunately, the National Basketball Association and its referees are at odds pertaining to contract negotiations. Due to the fact that no agreement has been reached, the NBA has decided to lockout its officials until a contract agreement can be reached. In the meantime, Joe Forte, the supervisor of officials in the Big South Conference and current NBA referee, has decided that he would either fire or not assign games to any NCAA official who decided to take the opportunity to assist the NBA and gain invaluable experience by working the lockout for the NBA.

Joe Forte’s actions lack integrity and scream unprofessionalism by disregarding the fact that NCAA officials are independent contractors and have no obligation to honor the negotiation disputes that the NBA referees are currently experiencing with the NBA by not accepting an opportunity to officiate in the NBA during the lockout.

The NBA is a dream for many NCAA officials just as the NBA is a dream for many NCAA players. For Joe Forte to take a personal agenda against officials who have been identified by the NBA should be cause for him to be fired immediately or at the very least, publically reprimanded for his actions. Joe Forte has shown that he cannot separate his personal agenda from business and his actions are denying the Big South Conference from having some of the best officials it can have on the floor because he is mad about the NBA using some of the Big South’s referees.

We request that the officials who Joe Forte has fired or denied games be immediately reinstated or given games. To sit back and do nothing would be condoning his actions and allowing him to take out his personal agenda against officials who had nothing to do with the issues that are between the NBA and its referees.

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

CC: David Stern, NBA
Ron Johnson, NBA
John Adams, NCAA
Dawn Turner, Big South
Joe Forte, NBA and Big South
USA Today
Yahoo Sports

Lack of signature shows the depth of sincerity.

If the NBA refs picketed, would the players' union cross the line?

From what I've heard, John Adams is not too high on NCAA officials working for the NBA either.

Interesting letter.

While I agree it seems unfair, independent contractorship is a two way street. Just as NCAA refs -- a term I use for convenience in speaking, we all know the NCAA does not have an officiating staff -- are free to work wherever and for whomever they like, assigners and commissioners are free to hire whom thy like.

This issue is definitely not unique to this situation. Anyone who works for multiple assigners has to deal with it to some extent. Even in my officiating career, which is modest by any standard, I have run into this issue.

Nevertheless, good luck with the letter.

In the referee world you always make decisions. The referees who decided to work these NBA games during the lockout had to make that decision knowing the pro and the cons. Many turned the NBA down because the cons far out weighed the pros. If you accepted the NBA offer and worked you had to know there will be some backlash. I have that decision to make on the people who worked the NBA games.

Moderator Mick:

While the lack of signature may indicate lack of sincerity to you, you failed to take the letter for its content instead of focusing on whether or not the letter is signed. The content of the letter is nevertheless true. That is what matters.

Regarding John Adams, he has publically already stated at NCAA clinics that unless you work in a high profile league, i.e. the Big 6, you will not officiate in the regionals. What difference should it matter to the NCAA if officials work the lockout. The NCAA season has yet to play a game!

Furthermore, officials who have mid-majors as their primary leagues have NO opportunity to advance past the 1st or 2nd rounds, no matter how well they officiate in the tourney IF they get selected at all. That is "elitist" treatment in itself. However, that is another story.

The fact of the matter is that Joe Forte should not exercise his PERSONAL agenda against officials who decide to take the opportunity of officiating in the NBA during the lockout. Another fact...17 of the veterans NBA referees were at one point in time lockout referees themselves. For Joe to treat them the way illustrates a bit of hypocrisy.

If an official makes a decision, he has to live with that decision, but to hide behind the title of assignor or coordinator of officials to hinder someone or attempt to control who they work for or when they work is nothing but an attempt to demonstrate power. That is NOT treating someone fairly.

Keep it real!!

Any referee will tell you that they have been treated unfairly sometime during their career. Coaches blackball you, conferences drop you, you don't move into the tournament, etc.. “It's choice--not chance--that determines your destiny.”

seriously?
 

Let’s be honest, Joe Forte and all the other NBA referees have every right and reason to lose respect for the college referees who have chosen to work for the NBA during the lockout. Every “scab” referee who has agreed to work during this time has significantly weakened the referee’s bargaining position with the League. I commend those officials who refused the NBA’s offer. It’s ironic that ncaambbref says that it’s always been a dream of his to work as an NBA referee, yet he fails to recognize and respect the recent sacrifices made by Joe Forte and the other NBA referees as they demand fair compensation and benefits and fight for the integrity of their profession, not only for current referees but for all those referees who join the League in the future.

Ncaambbref, you have chosen to work for the NBA during the lockout, you are an independent contractor with the NCAA, and as an independent contractor you have never been entitled to game assignments in any conference. Those assigning referees to NCAA games SHOULD give the games to the officials who have shown their loyalty to college basketball and are not currently working for the NBA.

My guess is that ncaambbref didn’t sign this letter because he’s been advised that if Joe Forte is fired or publicly reprimanded based on these ridiculous and unproven accusations, ncaambbref will be defending himself in a defamation suit.

FACT CHECK: Joe Forte, Steve Javie and others REFUSED to work the lockout in the early 80’s prior to being hired by the NBA. Clearly, he’s no hypocrite.

It is not defamation when it is true. Yes every official has probably been treated unfairly at some level (high school or college) and yes officials get dropped by conferences from time to time. But don't claim that we are independent contractors just as a matter of convenience. If Joe is going to do this to officials, why not make it known? Bottomline is, his treatment of these officials for this reason is TRUE! Everyone in the Big South knows it.

The game of basketball is bigger than any one referee and any one union. Everyone may have a difference of opinion on this matter, but bottomline, the GAME of BASKETBALL WILL BE PLAYED no matter WHO officiates it.

Also, I stated that 17 at one time worked during a lockout. I never said that Forte was one of them. And never did I mention Javie's name.

Let's pose this scenario: would it be right if high school assignors FIRED every official who got a chance to work Jr. College or NAIA? What if every DII assignor fired officials who worked DI? Silly as it may seem but think about that when you criticize this letter. Stand on principle...right is right and fair is fair. Period!!!

Oh yeah, and when you discuss that Forte is fighting for the integrity of their profession...let's not forget that he is a CONVICTED FELON!!! Let me say that again...FELON!!! Do you think the NCAA would let a felon work? But the NBA referees' union made it so that they could still be a part of the NBA. How many other jobs would allow a felon to make six figures? Give me a break...

One more thing...I never said that I was a replacement ref either. You assumed that...

Have a nice day.

When your job is to assign referees for ball games you get to pick whatever person you want, plain and simple.

And an assignor serves at the pleasure of the league. If I was a commissioner and my assignor used a personal conflict of interest to make hiring decisions, I would be looking for a new assignor.

(And I'm just a little ole HS ref (who works an occasional JC game) who has no skin in this game whatsoever.)

Well said...again, right is right.

Yes, assignors are free to assign whomever they wish, but it should not be done based on prejudicial feelings or discrminatory in any manner. Because these officials took an opportunity, Forte exercised bias toward them.

BTW, word on the street is that he is under fire because of his actions. The NBA may not approve him to have outside employment (Assignor of the Big South) now and the Big South is investigating his treatment of these officials. So again, it is not defamatory when the allegations are TRUE! This may be the end of his assigning days...hopefully, anyway.

So you’re saying you’re not a replacement referee and therefore haven’t been personally affected by Joe Forte’s alleged bias against replacement referees???? Sounds like you have a personal vendetta against Joe Forte, which make your accusations even less credible. Or is it just that you weren’t assigned enough Big South games and you’re unhappy with your schedule?

If by “convicted felon” you are referring to the federal prosecution of 50+ NBA employees who all failed to pay taxes on their per diem, then yes, he is a convicted felon. David Stern decided to bring back the officials who were prosecuted because they are considered the best in the world. In an effort to “keep it real,” good thing “convicted felons” are given an opportunity to return to their professions or I wouldn’t have the pleasure of watching some of my favorite athletes.

Maybe the NBA referees should look into working college games during the lockout. My guess is your schedule would be even lighter.

Give me a break. My teenager can make more well reasoned and convincing arguments. Once you scrape away all the vitriol and personal attacks, your only real argument is, "It's not fair." I don't think anybody disagrees.

Unfortunately none of us live and work in fairy tale land. We live in a world where most of us have to "keep it real" every day to put food on the table. So let's do a little keepin' it real here, shall we?

Basic fact of life: If you want to keep your job, you need to keep the boss man happy. If you knowingly do something to make the boss man unhappy, you knowingly chose to suffer the consequence. In fairy tale land, a man may chose both his actions and the consequences of those actions. But here in keep it real land, you only get to chose your actions. You have to live with whatever consequences flow from them. These are all grown men who willingly accepted to work those games knowing that there might be a price to pay for doing so.

That, my friend, is keepin' it real.

(Yeah, I know. It just isn't fair. You already said that.)

Many assignors are from the old school of "loyalty." If an assignor hires you into their conference first, he/she expects that you will take games in their conference above all others until you move up the ladder into more "prestigious" conferences. Sometimes that assignor has a working relationship with the assignor of the "prestigious" conferences and it works out best for that official. When there is no working relationship, then it can turn very ugly.

In my humble opinion, I believe Mr. Forte is exercising his loyalty card. He hired these NBA replacement officials first into the D1 conference he assigns, probably worked diligently over the years to get their schedules with other D1 conferences for a maximum number of games. Then these replacement officials show them their thanks and loyalty to Forte by working his games when the NBA locked him out; he didn't walk out or strike.

I wonder if Forte hired some new officials into the Big South to replace the ones who now work the NBA games? Someone is always willing to fill in the gap that others left behind.

I simply said that I NEVER said I was a replacement ref. I said you assumed that. However, I never confirmed or denied your assumption...nuff said.

You can call my allegations whatever you want to call them. Why don't you simply ask officials in th Big South (if you know any of them) if what I am saying is true. Do you own investigation IF it really concerns you...nuff said.

I have no personal vendetta again Forte. I am simply expressing MY opinion on the matter. I did state that many will have a difference of opinion, which you and I clearly have and the poll is 50-50...nuff said.

Yes, I am referring to the tax evasion and it wasn't just on not paying taxes on their per diem...it was clearly an effort to make MORE money by downgrading airfares from 1st class to coach and not paying taxes on that money too. Some would call that stealing! You and and I have to pay our taxes correctly don't we? Obviously, if the FEDS got involved, it was very serious and a felon is a felon regardless of the charge. And most felons cannot VOTE...I may be wrong in this. But, you never responded to whether the NCAA would allow felons to work in the tourney...hum. And Stern did allow them to continue to work. He placed their ability over principle which has come back to bite him and is something that those felon referees have appeared to forget that they are lucky to even still have their jobs in the NBA at all.

But, if the NBA refs worked college hoops during the lockout that would be fine with me. But I guess you're so good that YOUR schedule would not decrease one bit if this happened. BTW, when a few NBA refs got fired from the NBA a few years ago, they went right back to some of the Big 6 leagues...I have no problem with that.

It is a sad state of affairs that if you have talent and are a felon, you are given more opportunity than if you are just a plain Joe...this applies to anything and not just sports. What does that say about our values?

Have a nice day...

Integrity
 

Officiating is about integrity, People get hired from this principle. I don't have a dog in this fight. However, I can say in this doesn't pass the smell test. The OP points of view are valid from my foxhole. Especially, when it come to officials moving up HS-Collge-Semi-Pro-Pro most assignor encourage this and not hold this against you/them.

If what the OP is stating is true, this is unfair.

My two cents.

ncaambbref has ZERO credibility
 

ncaambbref,

Everyone knows that anonymous message boards are a hotbed for disgruntled individuals to vent their frustrations with no consequences. You are clearly a replacement ref who feels slighted, someone with an axe to grind against Forte, or just a plain old internet troll who wants to stir controversy. In any case, you have no spine. For if you did, you would've signed your letter with true conviction, not the principles of a 13 year old girl wanting to sling mud with the other gossip girls.

Good Day.

And your post should get the same consideration then.

If Forte didn't have a personal conflict of interest, I'd have no problem with his stance. But either he is protecting his job or giving the appearance of trying to protect his job. In this biz, appearances are (apparently) everything.

This is why they shouldn't hire NBA officials as conference assignors, though.

I don't think I've ever read such bull$hit on this forum, on both sides of the issue.

Joe Forte has a responsibility to the Big South to put the best officials possible on the floor. If he's not doing that based on a personal vendetta, then he is not working in the best interests of the conference and their schools. It should be easy enough to detect. If there are replacement officials who were on the BSC staff last year, and none of them are receiving games this year...guilty as charged. Fire him.

For any replacement official, you're an idiot if you didn't think there would be repercussions from your actions. Right or wrong, those who don't honor a strike or lockout have always been shunned by those affected. Whether they are later hired is not an issue at this point. That's the league's choice.

Finally, it's laughable that people join the site to point fingers at posters who post "anonymously." Indeed, THREE posters who have never seen fit to join this site and post previously, joined now and posted in this thread just to attack the OP. You guys are so big on "spine," why did you join anonymously?

My name is Adam Jones and I'm from Utah. I was forwarded this thread by a friend and felt the need to post. I am a fan and have no stake in this matter. I do have a stake in anonymous accusations posted on message boards that have the ability to threaten the employment of an individual.

If ncaambbref has the audacity to make these claims, then he should have the balls to identify himself. For how could anyone believe his claims without a signature???

We have found ourselves in an age where anyone can cause life-altering changes to another, without fear of reprisal. And that is wrong.

I hope Mr. Kallander stands by Mr. Forte. As he should.

LOL! So if ncaambbref is a BSC official, he signs the petition and sends it to the commissioner, Mr. Forte sees he did this, you don't think ncaambbref is going to suffer reprisals?

BTW, I know of officials who posted on this site under their real names but stop doing so when they reached the D-1 level. I'm 100% sure they are told not to post on Internet discussion forums under their real names.

All of that is bull**** anyway. Whether he identifies himself or not is nothing. You say you're Adam Jones but I could say I'm Adam Jones an no one here would ever know the difference. And unless your name is Joe Forte, you're wrong. you have no stake in any of this.

To ncaambb ref

Grow a pair, have some courage, and sign your name at the bottom of your letter.

I've been officiating college basketball for many years now and have never been happy with the number of assignments I've received. No one ever is. My suggestion to you: stop whining and get better! Joe Forte has more courage and integrity in his little pinky than you do in your whole body. I hope Kyle sees your letter for what it is, a coward's way of complaining and, taking a cheap shot at someone behind the safety a computer.

Sign your name or do us all a favor and go away.....

How We Pine For Chuck Elias ...
 

I'm only a high school official. I originally posted under my real name. I was advised by my interpreter to post under a pseudo name, at about the same time that Chuck Elias did the same. If it was good enough for Chuck Elias, then it was good enough for me, and I followed my interpreter's advice.

You all know me as BillyMac, an environmental chemical analyst, from Connecticut. In real life, I'm just a sweet transvestite, from Transsexual Transylvania.

Really? How could ANY felon have integrity?

This isn't about a number of games. It is about how Forte interjected HIS personal feelings on referees who worked the lockout. Plain and simple, that is unprofessional and lacks integrity.

Who cares what my name is...that is NOT the issue here. I have a pair when I have my whistle in my mouth...that's for sure! LOL

Ask ANYONE affected and you will find out that what I stated is true and a FACT!

We should be backing these guys because they represent all of us. Don't you see that how this whole thing plays out directly influences how all referees are viewed and respected on all levels?
We are all in this together as referees.

They (NBA referees) do NOT represent me. Period.

What's your name?
 

hum...

Amazing...
 

At least there is a response. lol

What about the fact that he sent out emails wanting to know who was working and then did not give any of those guys games when he found out who they were. Amazing how things happen from this site...lol.

Shame on Ncaambref
 

Ncaambbref: From the complete lack of valid information in your claims and tone of your complaints, you're clearly inadequate yourself and feel the need to start throwing punches to take the attention off of your own inability. Instead of spending your energy blaming people with completely baseless accusations, spend some time looking at yourself and instead find ways to better yourself as a human being. You would clearly benefit from it.

Shame on you.

Wow - looks like someone has some serious emasculation issues. Maybe this is why there is such controversy with refereeing these days!

Wow, look at all these people registering just to vote in this poll never to be heard from again. Including the OP.

I don't consider the NBA officials to be part of some brotherhood, to be honest. Personally, I would prefer if NASO and other national organizations put some everyday HS and small college people in their leadership rather than a bunch of names who forget what it's like to drive 100+ miles to work a $55 game in front of 500 people.

Personal attacks on me do not change the FACTS!!!

This has NOTHING to do with my ability as a referee. For all yo uknow, I could be in the SEC, Big East, or any other D1 conference. I am voicing my opinion on a situation that again is unfair to those who are working the lockout and were at one point BS referees. Forte excercised his personal agenda against them...plain and simple. Your personal attacks on me matter not.

If Forte had nto treated these guys as he did, we would not have this thread!

I do not disagree with you. I may not ever post again on another topic, but I am a regular reader. I felt this issue should be brought up...but it's okay if people want to personally attack me. These are the same guys who the NBA did not call and feel some debt to NBA officials. Why? They don't care about NCAA or HS referees.

Re: ncaambbref's lack of education
 

Wow.

So all of this uproar over a posting from someone with AT MOST a 10th grade education?

"...unprofessional treatment that is being displayed on and to some of your officials..."

Now I may not be an English professor, but I am pretty sure you cannot display treatment, of any kind, "on" a human being.

Only an insecure, shallow, small minded, feeble little man-child would post a message like this on a forum without a signature.

Joe Forte is one of the best officials the NBA has ever had, and if there is any justice in this world, officiating in the NBA will forever remain an unattainable dream for people like you.

I hope you get what you deserve - and that is a lifetime of officiating girls Junior High basketball games in lower Alabama for the rest of your miserable life.

Sincerely,

Todd Johnson
67 Feeble Little Man-Child Street
Insecure, CO 22222

Thanks for your well wishes. Yeah...officials are a brotherhood? NOT.

one more thing...
 

...you mention that personal attacks on you do not change the facts. Funny thing is that you offer no facts. Only your clearly biased opinion.

Facts:

* Forte sent out an email to staffers requesting the names of those who were working the lockout. (I doubt that ANY other coordinator did this)

* No one working the lockout received games this year even though they received games last year.

* Some lockout refs requested to miss the Big South clinic and were granted permission.

* Forte is a convicted felon for tax evasion - disputes the integrity claim.

* Forte served his time by being on HOME INCARCERATION for several months.

* The NBA grants Forte permission to be a supervisor in the first place - outside employment MUST be approved.

* The Big South has contacted several affected officials in THEIR investigation PRIOR to this thread!

Those are the FACTS!!!

I never said that Joe was not a good official...which he clearly is. He is historic as a matter of fact in a very good way. But he has exercised POOR judgment in how he is treating a certain group of officials due to his personal bias.

Joe clearly knows this thread is going on, so why doesn't he come on here and clear the air? Since I have no balls according to some, where are his? He knows what he has done and he knows it is wrong...no matter how he tries to defend his actions.

FACTS:

1. Actually, many coordinators did what you allege Joe did. Some instituted a drop dead date by which the officials had to chose the NBA or NCAA. In the emails you reference, he also asked every one of them for their closed dates so he could work around their dates, but guess what, they don't know their availability yet because the NBA has not assigned the regular season! What assignor do you know allows an official to not know his availability and assigns games to him anyway??

2. They are independent contractors and are not guaranteed games day to day, let alone season to season. So what they received last year means absolutely nothing.

3. They don't need to be granted permission to not attend his clinic. They are independent contractors and can do what they please. However they made a choice not to attend while others sacrificed their time to be there and showed a commitment to the big south.

4. Joe Forte's past has absolutely nothing to do with this and for you to drag that out is irresponsible and childish. Referring to the irrelevant past is what one does when his argument lacks credibility. Joe Forte has more integrity than anyone that would post anonymously on a message board and attack his character and try to jeopardize what he's worked 20+ years to establish.

You obviously have no clue what Joe has done for young officials OR you're not will to acknowledge it because it kills your argument against him. Joe has multiple camps a summer where he hardly charges any money. He stays in the gym everyday at those camps all day long working with young officials. He WORKS with them. He doesn't walk around for 30 mins like some supervisors and leave. He is there for the first game in the morning and leaves the last game at night. He has had nba management to his camps to get young officials a look. He has always worked hard to get young officials as many games as possible and help them advance. Everyone knows how much Joe helps young officials.

It's a shame that someone like yourself who obviously knows the sacrifices officials have to make would try to bring down someone who has given back so much to officiating.

Not in all conferences. I know of one high profile conference who fired or didn't renew the contract of a supervisor of officials who didn't assign the conference tournament to the commish's liking.

If I were the conference commissioner, I would call the supervisor and say something like, "while you are the supervisor and you were hired to exercise your discretion, if I find out you were using any criteria other than the quality of officiating -- based on your own criteria -- for assigning officials, you will be terminated. Obviously, your discretion is reviewable, but generally in a long term sense."

Absolutely nothing wrong with this. I really don't want officials working both NBA and NCAA games in the same season -- or at least, same stretch. But termination -- i.e. not allowing them back at any point -- would not be considered.

Have you noticed how the maturity level here has risen so sharply lately?

I will apologize for some of my comments. I let some of the people on here get to me...then I realized, why should I care about personal attacks when they really aren't personal because NONE of you on here know who I am, just as I do not know who any of you are or what leagues you officiate. Some have criticized my officiating ability when you have NO idea what leagues I work at all. That in itself is funny. I could be in the Big East or just a JuCo guy...you NEVER know. ANd yes, I could be working the lockout too! Speculate all you want...

Again, I pointed out what I felt was unfair treatment, regardless if people agree with me or not. Obviously, some do. Obviously, those who are in the Big South know what I have alleged is true. Why else would the NBA and the Big South contact those who were affected to investigate the situation?

It is clear that some have a loyalty connection with Forte and that is fine. But loyalty is a ONE way street. As soon as some of those who are LOYAL to Forte misapply a rule or are late to a game or do something eles, let's see how far that loyalty card takes them. They would more than likely be punished for their actions just as Forte should be punished for his!

Reagrdless of one's personal feelings toward the replacement refs, the game of basketball is bigger than anyone of us. And there will ALWAYS be referees who will gladly step in our shoes, even if YOU may not be one of them.

Forte abused his power as the coordinator of the Big South and this my fellow officials, MUST be addressed!!!

I'm with Tony: how on earth did the forum come to be the place for this little dog-and-pony show? Can't you weasels get a little chat room somewhere to yell at each other about the "facts?"

I believe the moderators may have a good idea who you are through your IP address.

*ncaambbref* is another name of another user of another user of another user, all of whom have been suspended for pot stirring.

So, essentially he was arguing with himself?

I was going to make the same observation. What a curiosity though it does go to show that this forum reaches a pretty wide audience.

Can you just go ahead and suspend this incarnation of him also??? Please??:D

My father used to say, "Working here is like peeing your pants while wearing a dark suit. You get a nice warm feeling, but nobody notices". Much the same could be said about hanging out here.

I'm curious what your goal was in bringing this here. AFAIK Joe Forte doesn't hang out here. And it's a solid bet the commissioner he works for doesn't hang out here. Perhaps a few of his staff, or former staff do. But, as you have told us, they are already well aware of the situation.

That leaves you with a relatively small audience, none of whom can do anything about this issue. Even if we were all stirred to action and took to the streets...then what?

If you're just looking for solidarity for your position on this, the result has been disappointing. But it should not surprise you. We have no dog in this fight. This is not an activist community. We're just here to talk some bball, improve our knowledge, sometimes vent a little, tell a few lies about what levels we're working, and forget that we have no actual social lives.

Nevertheless, though I don't share your outrage at what is happening, I wish you well in your efforts to get some justice for those you feel have been wronged.

I have no dog in this fight.

Seems to me, if the accusations you made were true, we would see some formations of legal proceedings against Mr. Forte. But we have not, so I am left to assume this is a case of a disgruntled person voicing their opinions behind the protection of the keyboard.

If and when charges are brought against Mr. Forte or the Big South, the Big South commissioner fires Mr. Forte, or Mr. Forte's assigning practices change in light of these allegations/pressure from the commissioner, I will consider a change of opinion. For now, play on.

Unfortunately, being an NBA replacement is not a class of people protecting from discrimination in hiring. Unless there is a broken contract, there is not much they can complain about and get something done. I believe al contacts are year-to-year. In fact, most probalby say there is no guarantee of games. So, the officials really have no legal basis for action.

The officials made a choice and choices have consequences. Now they have to live with them.

And I actually do not support the actions of Forte (if accurately represented) nor do I support the NBA officials refusing to accept a decent offer from the league. While I think unions have their place, most modern day unions ultimately do harm to the people they represent...being the biggest factor in the loss of US jobs...pricing themselves out of the market...forcing companies to move away.

May be a little exaggeration going here.

I obviously won't play lawyer as I a) have no understanding of the applicable labor laws and b) have no understanding of the intricacies of NBA union / D1 assigning.

I think my point was that if there are no legal proceedings, then he probably didn't break the law. And if he didn't break the law, then tough cookies for those who made choices knowing full well the consequence they could have, as unfair as they may be, as you suggested Camron.

To ncaambbref:

You have way too much time on your hands to keep this trivial carping going. It sounds as if you're going to have even more free time on your hands when the season starts. Enjoy..... it won't be long now that we'll all be back on the floor, including Joe and you'll be home with ......yourself.

So sad....

You obviously don't have a lot of experience with Union negotiations.

Actually I know exactly who you are. And I knew who you were months ago when you were posting as "CMoore". I know the leagues that you work and know at least one of your coordinators well because I work for him too.

I also know what governmental agency you work for in your full-time job because you post from work several times, so it wasn't too difficult to figure out.

So, why don't we all take a deep breath and try to get along :)

- Brad

LOL Brad - post of the year! (and not just because we share the same first name) haha. I'm laughing outloud here at people thinking they're anonymous and what they write on a message board won't come back to haunt them.

That's why I use my full name here -- no temptation to write what I wouldn't stamp my name on ha.

You should offer up his name so that Mr. Forte can address his concerns personally and publicly. Mr. Forte should know who his accusers are.

Since "ncaambbref" has taken the cowardly approach of hiding behind his computer and bashing a member of this BROTHERHOOD. You can't have it both ways. Talking about other officials in this small community eventually results in the unnamed party getting named. It usually doesn't end well either.

I am guessing he will not be back as "ncaambball" since he obviously forgot that the internets reach out a little further than he realized.

I have "secondhand" reason to believe that Mr. Forte has lots of accusers and that the OP is close to the truth.

This is true, but there are other potential common law and statutory claims. I don't know what state the conference being discussed is based in and even if I did, unless it was Texas, wouldn't know applicable laws there. However, a good attorney can craft causes of action based upon the argued facts and law. I have turned fact situations where other attorneys refused to act for my clients into settlements or even money judgments. Sometimes it wasn't so much brilliance as it was the notion to do a little work.

My point is the law is never as simple as a lot of people think it is, nor is it as complex, either!

Well. I expect that's the last we'll hear from this poster. :)

Brad -

You may very well know who I am just as I may know who you are. (I suspect that you do). That isn't too difficult either. If so, you know how to contact me and we can discuss offline. No need to go further on here...

You also may not agree with what I have said on the site, but I have not violated any of the forum rules other than to post an opinion(s) that many, including you , may not agree with. That in itself does not surprise me.

My responses to others were to dispute what some believed and I tried to have a reasonable debate, yet others took it to the "personal" level. However, I get banned for "reasons," yet those who bad mouth me do not.

This site has allowed personal attacks on me to overflow. I stated my opinion about the treatment the lockout referees (black and white) were receiving and what is the TRUTH regarding the entire situation as Moderator Mick is finding out as well now from his secondary sources. So, my allegations are warranted...and at the very least should be investigated.

The lockout has had an affect on many people and the fallout will more than likely be felt for a long time. There was very little "win" in this situation. I still say that just because a person in charge (supervisor) CAN do something and has the RIGHT to do something doesn't always equate to that person SHOULD do something. That's where judgment comes into play and I feel that the exercise of power to take games away from officials who worked the lockout (for that reason) was a poor exercise of good judgement and an abuse of power.

So if you opt to expose me, my conferences, my real job, my name, or identify me in circles that I may not be privy too, that is your choice. There's not a whole lot more that can be done to me or said about me that has not already be done or said. My opinion is what it is...I only wish I had more clout to do something about it...but I don't. I am just a small pea in officiating.

I know who some on here are too and I keep those things to myself...even when I see them out or work games with them and remember things that they post that I do not like or agree with. That's the freedom that we have in America to voice our opinions. However, we all know that those who may be in charge (i.e. moderators, coordinators, big time refs, crew chiefs, etc.) are privy to bring about harm to others in many ways if things are said or done that are not to the liking of those in charge.

I offered a truce earlier and yet I got banned again...I guess one poster was right...you will not hear from me again...under any other screen name. What's the point? Things I say fall on deaf ears. Maybe I pick the wrong forum or avenue to voice my opinion. Maybe my approach is all wrong. Maybe I need to self-reflect. Yes, you have caused me to wonder about this...

So even in saying this, I am CERTAIN that MANY will once again pile on the personal attacks, attempt to identify me, or even post my name, and bring harm to me. That will not change the facts of what happened to those Big South officials. BTW, the lockout will more than likely be over this weekend, so let's see if those guys get games in the Big South. Fair is still Fair! Period.

Have a great season! You're more of an expert in IT than me and a lot taller.

I may not agree with the OP's methods but I wouldn't be so quick to discount some of his claims either.

[QUOTE=smileyref;631958]Fair is still Fair! Period.QUOTE]

There is not much in life that is fair (outside of the basketball games that we officiate... and even then we have to make rulings that sometimes are not quite "fair" imo). The moment people realize this and start living their lives not expecting things to be fair is the moment they take personal accountability and really start to achieve personal success.

Given my life experience, I stop listening to people when they start to rant about things being"fair".

Hmmm, just wondering if any of the folks who said the OP was totally off-base would like to re-visit this topic?

Why? Is there a news story to support the OP or some other public information?

Why does there need to be a news story? Since when do game assignments appear in the news?

People know officials who worked in the Big South/Carolina Conference last year who also worked replacement games.

The OP claimed those officials would basically be blackballed/punished (or pick whatever word you choose) for working those games. (I'm not referring to the comments about Joe Forte's character).

Was there any validity to those claims by the OP?