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-   -   NCAA Secondary Defender - rule change (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/54532-ncaa-secondary-defender-rule-change.html)

Tio Wed Sep 02, 2009 07:46pm

NCAA Secondary Defender - rule change
 
New Rule. A secondary defender may not establish initial legal guarding position under the basket when playing a player who is in control of the ball (i.e., dribbling or shooting) or who has released the ball for a pass or try for goal. A secondary defender is a teammate who has helped a primary defender who has been beaten by an opponent because he failed to establish or maintain a guarding position. “Under the basket” is defined as from the front and side of the ring to the front of the backboard. A player is considered under the basket when any part of either foot is in this area. (Note: An approved ruling will indicate that a player straddling this area is considered to be under the basket.)

In establishing position in any outnumbering fast break situation, a player may not establish initial legal guarding position under the basket since there is no primary defender.

In both cases, when illegal contact occurs, such contact shall be called a blocking foul, unless the contact is intentional or flagrant.

Rationale: The committee is responding to overwhelming concern from the membership regarding contact under the basket. After some consideration of a restricted arc, the committee decided that court markings were not needed, but changed its rule in reference to secondary player establishing initial guarding position under the basket.


How is everyone planning to handle this new rule? I think this will require the lead to be primary whistle on all block/charges on secondary defenders (this may already be the case for many of us). Thoughts?

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Thu Sep 03, 2009 04:46am

Don't get me started on this rule change because it was adopted by people who do NOT have a clue about the game of basketball and why the definitions of guarding and screening are written the way they are. From the very first time I read the rule change I have been doing a slow burn and would love to knock the heads together of every yahoo on the Rules Committee that voted for the change.

MTD, Sr.

BillyMac Thu Sep 03, 2009 06:23am

Don't Hold Anything Back ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 623698)
Don't get me started on this rule change because it was adopted by people who do NOT have a clue about the game of basketball and why the definitions of guarding and screening are written the way they are. From the very first time I read the rule change I have been doing a slow burn and would love to knock the heads together of every yahoo on the Rules Committee that voted for the change.

C'mon Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Tell us what you really think.

rockyroad Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tio (Post 623647)
[SIZE="3"]
How is everyone planning to handle this new rule? I think this will require the lead to be primary whistle on all block/charges on secondary defenders (this may already be the case for many of us). Thoughts?

Rantings about whether this "new" rule is good or bad aside, the L should have the call on a secondary defender sliding in on a drive to the bucket. How else have you been doing it Tio???

Ref Ump Welsch Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 623701)
C'mon Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Tell us what you really think.

BillyMac, has Mark ever held back on us? ;)

Tio Thu Sep 03, 2009 01:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 623749)
Rantings about whether this "new" rule is good or bad aside, the L should have the call on a secondary defender sliding in on a drive to the bucket. How else have you been doing it Tio???

The lead has the best chance to get it right. Some officials still think they get first crack if the drive comes from their area even on a secondary defender. I don't like this because 1. There is no way the outside official is able to see the whole play on the legal guarding position of the secondary defender. 2. Now with the new rule, the lead is really the only one who can make a determination on whether the defender was under the cylinder. Crews that trust each other will be fine with the new rule, crews that don't will be in trouble.

IREFU2 Thu Sep 03, 2009 02:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tio (Post 623760)
The lead has the best chance to get it right. Some officials still think they get first crack if the drive comes from their area even on a secondary defender. I don't like this because 1. There is no way the outside official is able to see the whole play on the legal guarding position of the secondary defender. 2. Now with the new rule, the lead is really the only one who can make a determination on whether the defender was under the cylinder. Crews that trust each other will be fine with the new rule, crews that don't will be in trouble.

I see some blarges coming!!!!!

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Thu Sep 03, 2009 09:47pm

The secondary defender is the L's responsiblity in both 2- and 3-man crews.

MTD, Sr.

btaylor64 Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by IREFU2 (Post 623775)
I see some blarges coming!!!!!


Why? If the lead calls a block and the slot or Trail call charge, wouldn't everything be trumped if the Lead says "He's in the Restricted Area."

Camron Rust Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by btaylor64 (Post 623840)
Why? If the lead calls a block and the slot or Trail call charge, wouldn't everything be trumped if the Lead says "He's in the Restricted Area."

No. You still have to determine if it is a secondary defender or not....at precisely what time does a defender become one or the other. There is a point at which a secondary defender becomes the primary defender.

And exactly where is this area? Without it being marked, there is going to be a lot of inconsistency. That is why the NBA eventually marked it. And if they can't get their crews to get it right without marking it, how to you think college guys (at all levels) will get it right.

icallfouls Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:07am

The NCAA diagram for this season.

https://www.eofficials.com/ESO_Repos...rt_Diagram.pdf

Camron Rust Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:18am

Quote:

Originally Posted by icallfouls (Post 623907)

That is what I thought the description was saying...and the picture makes it clear. However, without a precise marking on the floor, it will be a gray area and some officials will still not call a charge even if the player is a foot or even three outside that "box" with the claim that the player was "under the basket"...as they already do.

icallfouls Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:51am

NCAA Secondary Defender Rule
 
here is the rule and rationale for it as well as the rationale for not having it marked on the floor

New Rule. A secondary defender may not establish initial legal guarding position under the basket when playing a player who is in control of the ball (i.e., dribbling or shooting) or who has released the ball for a pass or try for goal. A secondary defender is a teammate who has helped a primary defender who has been beaten by an opponent because he failed to establish or maintain a guarding position. “Under the basket” is defined as from the front and side of the ring to the front of the backboard. A player is considered under the basket when any part of either foot is in this area. (Note: An approved ruling will indicate that a player straddling this area is considered to be under the basket.)

<O:p
In establishing position in any outnumbering fast break situation, a player may not establish initial legal guarding position under the basket since there is no primary defender. <O:p

<O:p
In both cases, when illegal contact occurs, such contact shall be called a blocking foul, unless the contact is intentional or flagrant.

<O:pRationale:The committee is responding to overwhelming concern from the membership regarding contact under the basket. After some consideration of a restricted arc, the committee decided that court markings were not needed, but changed its rule in reference to secondary player establishing initial guarding position under the basket.

Jesse James Fri Sep 04, 2009 02:37pm

While the committee explains their rationale, could they also explain the logic to now let A drive baseline, go up for a reverse lay-up or reverse jam, and completely splatter a stationary secondary defender under the hoop to draw the blocking foul.

How else is a secondary defender supposed to stop that drive?

icallfouls Fri Sep 04, 2009 04:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse James (Post 623953)
While the committee explains their rationale, could they also explain the logic to now let A drive baseline, go up for a reverse lay-up or reverse jam, and completely splatter a stationary secondary defender under the hoop to draw the blocking foul.

How else is a secondary defender supposed to stop that drive?

That is not what the NCAA is saying. All they are saying is that there is a 2x2 sf box where the secondary defender cannot set up.

The play you are talking about can still draw a charge if the defense is, basically, clear of the cylinder. If the defense is just outside this box then the charge can be drawn. You just can't establish LGP while under the basket.

This will help prevent unsafe situations and REQUIRE the officials to make a call.


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