This happen last night in a HS summer league. The game was held at a local HS.

A takes the ball out after a made basket. A1 tries to throw a full court length pass. The pass is so high, that the ball lodges into a basket hoop, near the ceiling. To explain, the hoop was one of the side hoops that was put away electronically. What do you have and why do you have that?

Peace

Since it was a throw in, I say violation, spot back where the original throw in took place, especially if the baskets were outside the lines.

I don't have any rules or my book here to back me up, just a gut feeling. If it was during play, I guess a AP?

The ball seems to me to be clearly OOB. The result is a throw-in violation. The team that was defending the throw-in would be entitled to a designated spot throw-in at the spot of the previous throw-in.

The ball touched "overhead equipment" (even though that equipment was not in use for the game at the time), so it's OOB.

Chuck

Yep, ball hitting object outside the boundary lines is OOB. Pretty basic rule knowledge Rut, I'm surprised you didn't know that one.

Z

Hey Z, I know you're just yankin' Rut's chain, but to be fair, it's not quite as obvious as that. The ball didn't necessarily hit outside the boundary lines. It sounds like it hit something directly above the playing surface. And the rule I quoted is a little ambiguous about whether it's talking about equipment being used in the game (basket supports, shot clock, support wire, etc.) or if it's talking about anything above the court. I'm taking it to mean the latter.

If, however, somebody were to tell me authoritatively that it only refers to the supports for the basket, etc., then it doesn't seem to be covered in the rules. In that case, I would still call it OOB and blame it on 2-10 :)

Chuck

This is generally legal and in play if the official is wearing white shoes and the ball is easy to palm.

Typical of you Z to think this is a black and white discussion. I am asking what do you have, not whether I got the rule right or not. Or better yet, I did not say what we did or did not do. If you read my post, you will see I never gave what we did. But you probably knew that already? This play that happen I have never seen before and caused an interesting discussion between my partner and I and other officials there. And just like Chuck stated, we discussed the possibility of an AP and OOB ruling. Considering that this was not the ceiling and is not specificially refered to by rule. No casebook play covers this one. That is why I asked the question. I'm surprised you did not get that one either. :rolleyes:

Peace

I think I would have gone with OOB, but can see where an argument could be made for an AP situation because the ball lodged between the rim and backboard.

This sounds like an area where you could go either way, talk fast when explaining it to the coaches and pull it off even if you had no clue what call to make. I mean, if they knew the rules, wouldn't they be officials? :D

Actually, I never discussed the possibility of it being an AP situation. However, I think that you can actually make a case for the AP. You've only got 2 choices regarding the status of the "equipment" above the floor. Either it's in play or it's OOB (as I outlined in my last post). If the equipment is OOB, then the inbounder has committed a throw-in violation. I don't think there's any controversy about saying that.

If, however, you say that the equipment is in play, then you have a different situation. You have a throw-in that simply hasn't ended. The ball is live but there's no possession. So if you blow the whistle, you have created a dead ball when there is no team control. That would result in an AP procedure.

I would not rule that way, but I could at least see the logic of it if somebody wanted to go that way. Personally, I think that the "equipment" above the court is OOB and would call a throw-in violation.

Chuck

Now, Chuck, how simple does it get? "The ball is out of bounds when it touches the ceiling, <B>overhead equipment</b> or supports." If a side court goal, that's rolled up, isn't overhead equipment, what is? It's no different than if it hit a scoreboard, ceiling, bleachers, or a disco glitter ball over the court. It has nothing to do with whether the ball lodged or not.

It ain't that difficult. Even mick is making lite of it.

My only concession to the AP solution is that "overhead equipment" is somewhat ambiguous. It could mean anything that's overhead, like the disco ball. Or it could refer specifically (and only) to the equipment that is being used in the game; e.g., basket supports or wires that run all the way to the ceiling, the shot clock, a hanging scoreboard.

If someone were to contend that overhead equipment is only the stuff that is specifically related to the game being played at the time, then you could make a case for the AP. But as I've said, I think that it should be interpreted as "anything" that is overhead. I'm just trying to give Rut the benefit of the doubt.

Chuck

I'm thinking wrong rim and backboard here.

I also think everyone is reading way too far into the "overhead equipment" rule in 7-1-2d. The rule does not mention overhead equipment 'being used in the game' (as some have suggested), so it applies to all overhead equipment equally and without restriction.

I agree. But it is not explicit on that point.

It's not ambiguous. It <i>does</i> literally mean anything that's overhead. What term would you use to describe everything overhead? Whether the item has something to do with the game or not, it's OOB, if the ball hits it. You make it sound like it would be OOB if it hit a scoreboard but it wouldn't be if it hit a light that wasn't burning. That doesn't make sense. If it hits anything, it's a violation. Why does it need to be anymore explicit?

Are you playing debil's advocate? :)

How about instead of "overhead equipment", we substitute the phrase "any object above the level of the top of the backboard"? That's explicit.

Quote:

Whether the item has something to do with the game or not, it's OOB, if the ball hits it.

I agree. I've agreed all along. I'm merely pointing out another possible, plausible interpretation based on the wording of the rule.

Quote:

Why does it need to be anymore explicit?

Precisely b/c it's not explicit.

Chuck (Debil's Advocate, Esq.)

Ok, I'll leave you alone!
 

= Overhead equipment!

And I used a whole lot less words. But MTD Sr. would be proud of you! :)

<i>Typical of you Z to think this is a black and white discussion. I am asking what do you have, not whether I got the rule right or not. Or better yet, I did not say what we did or did not do.</i>

This <b> is </b> a black and white situation. The rule is VERY clear about overhead equipment. And things like overhead baskets are exactly why the rule is there. Basic stuff. You can't sell AP or anything else because this one is as cut and dried as it gets.

Z

Re: Ok, I'll leave you alone!
 

Honestly, I disagree with that. What I wrote is not equivalent to "overhead equipment". My phrase would also cover hanging banners or other decorations or even a stray bird, which are clearly not equipment. I think I've added enough words to this thread, tho. I'll recuse myself from further argument. :)

Chuck

[Edited by ChuckElias on Jul 17th, 2002 at 08:43 PM]

Re: Re: Ok, I'll leave you alone!
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChuckElias

Quote:

... I think I've added enough words to this thread, tho. I'll recuse myself from further argument. :) Chuck

No need to do that Chuck, just stop posting on it. ;)

Zebraman, I could not have said it better. Having said that, you should know that I have now given you the kiss of death because I have agreed with you.

You go Z
 

Whatever you say. :rolleyes:

Peace

Exactly - it's not explicit.

Because it does not specify any certain types of "overhead equipment" it applies to all "overhead equipment."

If we treat this as the ball being lodged between one of the two 'official' backboards and rims, what's next? Does a team score two points if the ball goes through the hoop of a suspended basket? How will you figure out the 3-point line in 3-dimensional space?

Re: Re: Ok, I'll leave you alone!
 

Forgive me for playing the Devil's Advocate of the Devil's Advocate . . .

Are you saying you wouldn't rule a ball which hit an overhead banner out of bounds? (Or that you would consider that the rules state this is not out of bounds?)

Guys and gals, let's remember one thing - this is basketball.

It's not arena football.

It's not indoor soccer.

It's not pool/billiards.

You're supposed to use the floor and (in some cases) the backboard to dribble and hit the ball off of (maybe a player or ref, too.) If you still don't agree that this is "overhead equipment," invoke 2-10 (along with some common sense) and call it an extension of the ceiling.

This is one of those cases............
 

where the NF or even College for that matter goes back and makes a rules editorial revision. The issue seems obvious, but the rules do not "clearly" state what happens in this case. I know some will say that it is clear, but every year in at least one of the sports I do, they make an editorial change to close the gap or confusion in the wording. I guess you could say that the touching procedes the lodging in this case. But if there was a newer official or an official that has not seen this before, it makes for an interesting debate. That is why I posted the question. All obviously do not agree on what the "actual" ruling is.

Peace

The hanging backboard not OOB - I don't agree with it, but there could be an arguement for that case.

But to call an AP situation for the ball trapped between the backboard and rim?? Let's look at a few rules which dispute this.

First, 6-3-3d - you go to AP when "A live ball lodges between the backboard and ring or comes to rest on the flange, unless a free-throw or throw-in follows."

Let us, then, examine 1-8, backboard position. It states, in part that the backboards must be "midway between the sidelines," have the "plane of the front face perpendicular to the floor," and goes on to specify measurements to pinpoint the location. If we want to be hyper-technical, then a backboard suspended in the "up" position is not really a backboard, per the rules, and therefore would not apply to the qualification of 6-3-3d, thus rendering your point moot.

Re: Re: Ok, I'll leave you alone!
 

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias "any object above the level of the top of the backboard"?

= Overhead equipment! [/QUOTE]
Honestly, I disagree with that. What I wrote is not equivalent to "overhead equipment". My phrase would also cover hanging banners or other decorations or even a stray bird, which are clearly not equipment.[/B][/QUOTE]So if you hit a bird flying above the level of the top of the backboard,it's OOB.If you hit a bird flying below the level of the top of the backboard,the ball's still in play.What's the call if it hits a bird that's flying half above/half below the level of the top of the backboard?Now that's a tough judgement call!:D

I'm with Z,Tony,MTD Sr.,et al.It's a simple,straight-forward call.It's been OOB since Dr. Naismith removed the wire mesh from around the court.

Re: Re: Re: Ok, I'll leave you alone!
 

D@mn! That's why we can't keep those birds off the court! :D

In the definitions part of the rule book, is there a definition for "equipment"?

2003-2004 POE:

Overhead Equipment...

Re: Re: Re: Re: Ok, I'll leave you alone!
 

I worked an AAU game this summer in a gym that had a bird's nest way up high in the rafters. The coach told me the biggest problem was avoiding the occasional splats.

Mark, I think you've misunderstood my thinking. Whatever an official rules in this case, it is most definitely not the same as the ball being lodged between one the two 'official' backboards and rims. I've never claimed that we could consider it to be such. My only contention was that IF you consider the retracted rims to be in play (and, once again, I personally don't) then if the ball gets stuck there, it is technically still a live ball. Which means that when you blow your whistle, you've created a dead ball where there is no team control; thus, the AP procedure.

Quote:

Are you saying you wouldn't rule a ball which hit an overhead banner out of bounds? (Or that you would consider that the rules state this is not out of bounds?)

No!! No!! I am NOT saying that!!! I am only trying to show the plausibility of an alternative interpretation of the rule.

As I said in my very first post in this thread, I would call this play a throw-in violation, based on the "overhead equipment" part of the OOB rule. And even if that rule doesn't really apply I would call it OOB "and blame it on 2-10" (as I said in my second post in this thread).

Now I am really done with this thread!! The more I say, the more confused the situation becomes.

Chuck

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ok, I'll leave you alone!
 

That's only a violation if a bird that is above the level of the backboard craps on the ball.It's legal if the bird is below the level of the backboard when he craps on the ball.It's the same concept as "you are what you touched last" combined with the overhead equipment rule.

Man,I love these technical discussions!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChuckElias

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark Dexter Quote: Are you saying you wouldn't rule a ball which hit an overhead banner out of bounds? (Or that you would consider that the rules state this is not out of bounds?) No!! No!! I am NOT saying that!!! I am only trying to show the plausibility of an alternative interpretation of the rule. Chuck

OK, so I get it. What you're saying is that this has to be an AP. :eek: (sorry, couldn't resist)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ok, I'll leave you alone!
 

JR, I don't think you want to be touched at all, in my sitch. :)

Must. . .not. . .reply. . . .must. . .control. . .smart-@$$. . .reflex. . . . :p

Let's get back to Rut's original post. He noted that this is a side basket that was not put up all the way. Not the main baskets where a ball lodged in the rim results in a jump ball.

I believe that anytime a ball hits an object over the court, it is a dead ball, ball goes to opposing team. This means side baskets, scoreboards that hang over the middle of the court, etc.

This is not volleyball. Volleyball has rules to cover how to play when there are overhead obstructions.

In Rut's scenario, the throw-in hits an obstruction (regardless if it was over the court or not), thus resulting in a violation. Opposing team gets throw in at the point of the original throw-in.

I do believe that the same holds true if the ball is in play. example: A1 trys a long shot at the end of the quarter and hits a ceiling beam (I know a small gym). I would blow the ball dead the moment it touched the beam and award the other team the ball nearest the spot of the touch.

Now a good question would be what if A1 when throwing in the ball, heaves it the length of the court and it gets lodged in the rim. What would we have then? (mostly like another throw in violation)

Sigh. Any off-court or overhead THING is out of bounds except for either backboard and rim. It doesn't matter if it's a throw-in, a shot, a pass, a kicked ball or whatever. The original sitch is cute but a no brainer. OOB. OOB on a throw-in is a violaton, ball goes back to the spot.

Mostly like you're right.It's a throw-in violation.Rules reference is R9-2-8.If it touches someone inbounds and then lodges,it's an AP.

Throw-in violation....unless before the game this was to be consider an exception to that particular gym! I would hope not!

AK ref SE