two interesting summer league things

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

First, the boring one from last night. Both officials had whistles at the same time. The first one to speak up calls a double foul off the ball. He reports them. Then the other one says he has a two-shot foul. He reports it. (The funny thing is both fouls on the opponents were on the same guy! Somebody must've mixed up a number.) Somebody from the other team is confused, and asks if there were three fouls on that play, and the official tells him there was. We shoot two for the shooting foul, then we go to the arrow and the opponents get the ball (at midcourt, not too sure about that).

Now, the interesting one from Wednesday. I wasn't a player, just a spectator. Team A misses a shot at the buzzer and it goes to overtime. (Meanwhile, I'm thinking that I'm surprised that these guys let a rec game go to OT.) Late in the OT, my assistant coach (who plays for Team B) shot faked, ducked under, and shot the ball. There was a whistle and the horn. The whistle was a shooting foul, by one of the most veteran officials around. There was no contact, according to my assistant coach. They put :01 back on the clock. My AC goes to the line and hits the first. Surprisingly, he makes the second. (I would've missed on purpose.) Team A calls timeout and then inbounds deep. My AC bats the ball out of bounds, but the clock never started! The officials leave the :01 up there, Team A inbounds baseline, and scores on a lob to go to the second OT!

Late in the second OT, Team B is down by 3 with 7 seconds left, so they foul. A1 misses the front end, and B1 (my AC) pushes into frontcourt and calls time out with 3 seconds left. Team A comes out guarding the three-point line, so my AC gets an inbound pass about 30 feet out and drains the three to force a third OT. Team A won in the third OT by two.

Comments? Especially on whether the officials could have/should have put that second back up, and whether they could have/should have left it up there after the deflection.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach
There was a whistle and the horn. The whistle was a shooting foul, by one of the most veteran officials around. There was no contact, according to my assistant coach. They put :01 back on the clock.

Haven't we had this one on here before? I think our decision was that principles of lag time apply - if ref whistled, looked, and saw :01, he would reset to :01.

My AC bats the ball out of bounds, but the clock never started! The officials leave the :01 up there, Team A inbounds baseline, and scores on a lob to go to the second OT!

Are you sure the clock didn't start?? Unless the clock shows 1/10ths of a second, you would have no way of knowing if the clock started or not. I have had times where the ball is quickly deflected OOB on an inbounds pass twice in a row, and no time ran off the display, but the clock was running - it just depends on how good of a timer you have.

[Brian Watson]

I think you know how we are going to answer this.

The first sitch is just wrong on so many levels I won't even comment.

#2 There should not have been time put back on if they were using Fed rules. I would not have cleared the clock on the inbound play. Since it was only tapped out, legitimatly (sp) there could have still been time on the clock, big stretch to call it there.

And if it was me, I would have definitly had a foul on that three at the buzzer of OT2...

[devdog69]

Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach


Late in the second OT, Team B is down by 3 with 7 seconds left, so they foul. A1 misses the front end, and B1 (my AC) pushes into frontcourt and calls time out with 3 seconds left. Team A comes out guarding the three-point line, so my AC gets an inbound pass about 30 feet out and drains the three to force a third OT. Team A won in the third OT by two.

Comments? Especially on whether the officials could have/should have put that second back up, and whether they could have/should have left it up there after the deflection.

I am doubting the fact that you have an adult rec league game late in the second OT and you are still shooting a 1 and 1? Minor detail in your story, but it caught my eye.

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Originally posted by devdog69

I am doubting the fact that you have an adult rec league game late in the second OT and you are still shooting a 1 and 1? Minor detail in your story, but it caught my eye. [/B]

I had a similar thought ("it has to be double bonus by now"), so I asked my AC after the game. He said they play one-and-one on the 8th foul and no double bonus. I don't know why; maybe it keeps the game going a little faster?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

I had a similar thought ("it has to be double bonus by now"),

"Double bonus?" What's that? I can't seem to find it in my rules book.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by bob jenkins
"Double bonus?" What's that? I can't seem to find it in my rules book.

Yeah, I think we've had this conversation before. What would be the correct term? "Two-shot bonus"? "Guaranteed bonus"? "Automatic bonus"? There's no official name to distinguish it from the 1-and-1 variety, as far as I can remember.

[mick]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

"Double bonus?" What's that? I can't seem to find it in my rules book.

"Okay guys, line-up. ...Shootin' two(of those thingys)."

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Yeah, I think we've had this conversation before. What would be the correct term? "Two-shot bonus"? "Guaranteed bonus"? "Automatic bonus"? There's no official name to distinguish it from the 1-and-1 variety, as far as I can remember.

Well, as far as that goes, is the term "1 and 1" in the rule book?

[Mark Padgett]

When the NCAA first put in the two shot foul on a common foul some years ago, commentator and former coach Al McGuire recommended calling it the "super bonus", but it never caught on. I think "double bonus" has become the recognized and accepted term.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Well, as far as that goes, is the term "1 and 1" in the rule book?

I don't think so. I'm sans books at the moment, but I think it's something like, "a bonus free throw is awarded beginning with the opponents 7th team foul, if the first throw is successful. The bonus is automatically awarded on the 10th and subsequent team foul."

I knew what PACoach meant by the term -- I was just in a "precise" mood -- and it's one of my favorite rules trivia questions to get new officials into the book.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by me, ChuckElias

Originally posted by bob jenkins
"a bonus free throw is awarded beginning with the opponents 7th team foul, if the first throw is successful. The bonus is automatically awarded on the 10th and subsequent team foul."

I think that means that I was right!! Henceforth, let it be known as the automatic bonus!

Chuck

[Camron Rust]

The casebook (somewhere) refers to an "automatic bonus". The first shot is given and the second is either earned by making the FT or is automatic (with 10 or more fouls). Can't really be the double bonus since the first one is not a bonus, just the second one.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
The casebook (somewhere) refers to an "automatic bonus". The first shot is given and the second is either earned by making the FT or is automatic (with 10 or more fouls). Can't really be the double bonus since the first one is not a bonus, just the second one.

If the first one's not a "bonus" shot, why is it only awarded after the 7th team foul??

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

If the first one's not a "bonus" shot, why is it only awarded after the 7th team foul??

The first one is a bonus shot.The language in the books support that--specifically R-4-19-12 and CB 2.10.6A&B.These all talk about a bonus FT at 7 fouls.The first shot would always be a bonus shot.The second shot becomes an additional automatic bonus shot at 10 fouls.Just semantics,IMO.