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-   -   Jump ball or Travel (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/53835-jump-ball-travel.html)

Johnny Ringo Fri Jul 03, 2009 02:40am
Jump ball or Travel
 
Strange play: Player A is an airborne shooter, the defender comes from behind a touches (more like grazes) the ball. The ball never came dislodged, loose or at anytime did player A lose control.

Player A just held onto the ball and returned to the floor - he never shot it, bobbled it, nothing ...

The case book says if the defender keeps the shooter from releasing it is a jump ball, but I am not sure that defender was kept from releasing it. The shooter just never shot it.

Thoughts?

just another ref Fri Jul 03, 2009 02:43am
Judgment call. If you feel the contact on the ball prevented the release, held ball. If you feel the shooter was simply confused/distracted by the contact, and this caused him to return to the floor, travel.

ILMalti Fri Jul 03, 2009 07:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo (Post 612153)
Strange play: Player A is an airborne shooter, the defender comes from behind a touches (more like grazes) the ball. The ball never came dislodged, loose or at anytime did player A lose control.

Player A just held onto the ball and returned to the floor - he never shot it, bobbled it, nothing ...

The case book says if the defender keeps the shooter from releasing it is a jump ball, but I am not sure that defender was kept from releasing it. The shooter just never shot it.

Thoughts?
The rule for held ball is very specific.

4.25.2 states

An opponent places his/her hand on the ball and prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try


Since your description says "touches (more like grazes) the ball. The ball never came dislodged, loose or at anytime did player " then there could only be ONE call according to Rule 4.25

TRAVEL as per 4.44.3b

bob jenkins Fri Jul 03, 2009 08:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 612154)
Judgment call. If you feel the contact on the ball prevented the release, held ball. If you feel the shooter was simply confused/distracted by the contact, and this caused him to return to the floor, travel.

Agreed, but the "benefit of the doubt" should go to the held ball call.

Ch1town Fri Jul 03, 2009 08:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 612173)
Agreed, but the "benefit of the doubt" should go to the held ball call.
I agree, depending on the game situation.

ILMalti Fri Jul 03, 2009 08:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 612173)
Agreed, but the "benefit of the doubt" should go to the held ball call.
Sorry but I have to ask. How can this be a judgment call?

The rule is very very specific for held ball..
The OP description says that the ball was "grazed ,touched, ball never came dislodged, loose or at anytime did player A lose control."

In addition the OP states "The shooter just never shot it."


So where does the held ball rule come to play?

why complicate the call? Judgment calls lead to problems especially when a rule can be applied without any question

So using the above logic : a TRAVEL call only

Ch1town Fri Jul 03, 2009 08:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILMalti (Post 612177)
Sorry but I have to ask. How can this be a judgment call?

The rule is very very specific for held ball..
The OP description says that the ball was "grazed" ,touched, ball never came dislodged, loose or at anytime did player A lose control.

So where does the held ball rule come to play?

NOt a judgment call but a TRAVEL call only (no mention of a foul)
Really? How could this not be a judgment call :eek:

This thing we do is more of an Art than a Science & the rules are the guidelines which we go by. BUT there aren't any absolutes, always or automatics in what we do either :)

You never worked the MS game when one team is down by 40 & ignored their travel(s) or gave them all the 50/50 calls???

I would like to think that the good official uses his/her judgment each & every time they do/don't put air in the whistle!!

Know & understand the rules, their intent & how to apply them. But don't be a rulebook ref, be a people person who has a great feel for the game & try to make the right calls at the right times ;)

Adam Fri Jul 03, 2009 09:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILMalti (Post 612177)
Sorry but I have to ask. How can this be a judgment call?

The rule is very very specific for held ball..
The OP description says that the ball was "grazed ,touched, ball never came dislodged, loose or at anytime did player A lose control."

In addition the OP states "The shooter just never shot it."


So where does the held ball rule come to play?

why complicate the call? Judgment calls lead to problems especially when a rule can be applied without any question

So using the above logic : a TRAVEL call only
This is very much a judgment call, and you're basing your ruling on his judgment. He judged that the shot was not prevented by the contact, based on how he worded his post.

In a game, on this play, there is judgment involved. Just like there is judgment on whether contact against a shooter affects a shot, or if it is incidental.

ILMalti Fri Jul 03, 2009 09:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 612184)
This is very much a judgment call, and you're basing your ruling on his judgment. He judged that the shot was not prevented by the contact, based on how he worded his post.

In a game, on this play, there is judgment involved. Just like there is judgment on whether contact against a shooter affects a shot, or if it is incidental.
What would have constituted a "held ball" in your mind, the "graze" from behind?

Travel

Adam Fri Jul 03, 2009 09:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILMalti (Post 612191)
What would have constituted a "held ball" in your mind, the "graze" from behind?

Travel
Yep, travel, but it's based purely on his description of the events. "Graze" in this case is a judgment word.

ILMalti Fri Jul 03, 2009 09:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town (Post 612180)
Really? How could this not be a judgment call :eek:

This thing we do is more of an Art than a Science & the rules are the guidelines which we go by. BUT there aren't any absolutes, always or automatics in what we do either :)

You never worked the MS game when one team is down by 40 & ignored their travel(s) or gave them all the 50/50 calls???

I would like to think that the good official uses his/her judgment each & every time they do/don't put air in the whistle!!

Know & understand the rules, their intent & how to apply them. But don't be a rulebook ref, be a people person who has a great feel for the game & try to make the right calls at the right times ;)
No BB is not a "Art than a Science "; there are absolutes
The rule book was written many years ago and has not changed that much. The reason is that the rule covers the games in its entirety. Even our "judgment calls" are covered (ex incidental contact).

But to say that the rule should be "ignored" becasue a team is loosing is not right, The problem we have is that if you apply the intent of the rule one way and I apply it the other way, how can we excpect players coaches and audience to be consistant, One game a player is allowed to do "X" and in an other game they are not. The rules keep it all consitant.

I have been in a game which ended 100-2. I could not do much. The winning team coach kept on pressing, Not my place to tell him not too. The crowd and all did go wild when the loosing team scored their basket. I must admit I did smile.

All I am saying if we all understand the rules and apply them then we will all have a consitant call , and players, coaches etc will not complain.

"Over the back comes to mind" No such rule or call. But the minute coaches and players see someone who happens to be very tall put their head over a short player ... the calls start and some refs call it....

Understanding the rules is not easy, and I am not saying I know them. All I am saying is if we apply the rules consistantly with out our "ART" side the game will be consistant. We are not there to judge the game but to make sure the rules are followed.

See post to SNAGWELLS

ILMalti Fri Jul 03, 2009 09:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 612192)
Yep, travel, but it's based purely on his description of the events. "Graze" in this case is a judgment word.
So what made you say travel? the rules as decribed in 4.44 or since the "description of the play " did not apply to held ball?

That is not judgement : that is applying the play to a rule and deciding which rule it applies too.

I call the following observations "graze did to try to shoot" etc which then are put down a decision tree to see which rule to officaite on or not.:)

Perhaps we are saying the same thing but using the wrong words. Judgment for me means you decide regardless of what rule should apply.

BillyMac Fri Jul 03, 2009 09:54am
Three Choices ???
 
When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked and is unable to release the ball and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. If, in this situation, the shooter releases the ball, then this is simply a blocked shot and play continues. When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and picks up the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor, whether, or not, the defensive player touches the ball in the block attempt.

Adam Fri Jul 03, 2009 09:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILMalti (Post 612197)
So what made you say travel? the rules as decribed in 4.44 or since the "description of the play " did not apply to held ball?

That is not judgement : that is applying the play to a rule and deciding which rule it applies too.

I call the following observations "graze did to try to shoot" etc which then are put down a decision tree to see which rule to officaite on or not.:)

Perhaps we are saying the same thing but using the wrong words. Judgment for me means you decide regardless of what rule should apply.
Ok, I'm not even sure what your last sentence means, to be honest. Are you saying you see judgment as determining the call regardless of the rule? I'm sorry, but that's a strawman. No one here would make that claim.

Judgment is determining whether or not the defensive touch actually prevented the ball from being released, or whether it was too light to do have any effect.

Judgment is determining whether or not that defensive contact caused the player with the ball to step on the OOB line, of if it was incidental and he was going to step OOB anyway.

Judgment is determining whether the contact on the shooter was enough to make it more substantially more difficult, or whether it was incidental.

ILMalti Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 612200)
When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked and is unable to release the ball and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. If, in this situation, the shooter releases the ball, then this is simply a blocked shot and play continues. When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and picks up the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor, whether, or not, the defensive player touches the ball in the block attempt.
So based upon the OP, travel or held ball?
We all seem to agree on what constitues a held ball. The discsusion I believe is based on the OP, is there any doubt that this play was a travel as per rules versus judgment call.

Adam Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILMalti (Post 612203)
So based upon the OP, travel or held ball?
We all seem to agree on what constitues a held ball. The discsusion I believe is based on the OP, is there any doubt that this play was a travel as per rules versus judgment call.
Okay, let's try this again.

Anytime the defense touches the ball held by an airborne shooter who does not release before landing, you have to make a judgment. "Did the defender's touch prevent the release." Sometimes that judgment is easier than others. In the case of the OP, it seems to have been a pretty easy judgment in favor of a travel call.

ILMalti Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 612202)
Ok, I'm not even sure what your last sentence means, to be honest. Are you saying you see judgment as determining the call regardless of the rule? I'm sorry, but that's a strawman. No one here would make that claim.
No I was trying to understand what "judgement" means to you.

I am trying to understand why based on the OP there should be any type of "judgment". There was no "held ball" according to the description on the rule.

Adam Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILMalti (Post 612207)
No I was trying to understand what "judgement" means to you.

I am trying to understand why based on the OP there should be any type of "judgment". There was no "held ball" according to the description on the rule.
Since we posted concurrently, I'll repost what is essentially an answer to your post here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 612206)
Anytime the defense touches the ball held by an airborne shooter who does not release before landing, you have to make a judgment. "Did the defender's touch prevent the release." Sometimes that judgment is easier than others. In the case of the OP, it seems to have been a pretty easy judgment in favor of a travel call.

ILMalti Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 612206)
Okay, let's try this again.

Anytime the defense touches the ball held by an airborne shooter who does not release before landing, you have to make a judgment. "Did the defender's touch prevent the release." Sometimes that judgment is easier than others. In the case of the OP, it seems to have been a pretty easy judgment in favor of a travel call.
but this is my "mental block", and I have simplified the thought process

1) player in air with ball, any rule broken : NO
2) Is player passing, trying holding : OP ays none
3) defense comes from behind
4) Any illegal contact : NO
5) Defense touches ball
6) Held ball rule applies : NO
7) offense goes to floor with held ball
8) Rule 4.44 applies; travel whistle

so no judgment in my mind.

Adam Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILMalti (Post 612211)
but this is my "mental block", and I have simplified the thought process

1) player in air with ball, any rule broken : NO
2) Is player passing, trying holding : OP ays none
3) defense comes from behind
4) Any illegal contact : NO
5) Defense touches ball
6) Held ball rule applies : NO
7) offense goes to floor with held ball
8) Rule 4.44 applies; travel whistle

so no judgment in my mind.
Judgment is required for you to move from 5 to 6 in your little progression here.

Let me ask you this. Why does the held ball rule not apply?

(wow, Socrates and Aristotle in one day?)

Ch1town Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILMalti (Post 612195)
No BB is not a "Art than a Science "; there are absolutes
Okay

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILMalti (Post 612195)
One game a player is allowed to do "X" and in an other game they are not. The rules keep it all consitant.
If you say so... I believe the officiating team keeps it consistent though. Every game is different, the coaches should use that opportunity to teach their kids to deal with adversity as they will have to make adjustments in life. Yep life-lessons can be taught through Bball.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILMalti (Post 612195)
I have been in a game which ended 100-2.
Did you score the 2 points :D

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILMalti (Post 612195)
All I am saying if we all understand the rules and apply them then we will all have a consitant call , and players, coaches etc will not complain.
HA!!!! As the players would say "are you serious!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILMalti (Post 612195)
"Over the back comes to mind" No such rule or call. But the minute coaches and players see someone who happens to be very tall put their head over a short player ... the calls start and some refs call it.....
I detest that as well :mad:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILMalti (Post 612195)
Understanding the rules is not easy, and I am not saying I know them. All I am saying is if we apply the rules consistantly with out our "ART" side the game will be consistant. We are not there to judge the game but to make sure the rules are followed.
No disrespect, but I'm going to leave you with this because it's obvious that you are either new to the craft or don't work a high level of ball, yet.

Any idiot can read a rule book, pass the test & run up and down the court blowing their whistle, agreed?
We even have some that don't own a book, but sits in the stands & makes all the calls, by rule... their misconception of the rule that is. But that's another story...

In addition to great PLAY CALLING ability, COMMUNICATION SKILLS, FITNESS, PERSONAL QUALITIES & ON/OFF-COURT PRESENSE,
GAME MANAGEMENT skills are a must to be successful!! Lead officials with the R & Crew Chief mentality knows that managing players/coaches emotions, knowing the time, score, etc, offensive/defensive schemes & game situation (who's trying to do what) is key... U1s & U2s are, well, just U1s & U2s :)
The game within the game!!

Let me stop, I should be charging you for this information :cool:
Do you have a PayPal account?

Adam Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:29am
Ch1town, he's really caught up on the word "judge." I've got no idea why, but that seems to be his main issue.

ILMalti Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 612215)
Judgment is required for you to move from 5 to 6 in your little progression here.

Let me ask you this. Why does the held ball rule not apply?

(wow, Socrates and Aristotle in one day?)
Socrates never wrote anything down and relied on the students(Plato, socrates prized student) to put it down and Aristotle was Plato prime student,
So Plato is the rule book Please continue asking the only way to really get an understanding of the rules

The held ball rule is very specific about when a held ball occurs,I refer you to 4.25.2

The rule states "prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try" keep word prevents
the OP specifically says no change in airborne action to them or the ball: not a judgment call in this case

Ch1town Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 612228)
Ch1town, he's really caught up on the word "judge." I've got no idea why, but that seems to be his main issue.
I see, he judges even when he thinks he's not :rolleyes:


Quote:
Originally Posted by ILMalti (Post 612211)
1) player in air with ball, any rule broken : NO << J'ment
2) Is player passing, trying holding : OP ays none << J'ment
3) defense comes from behind
4) Any illegal contact : NO << J'ment
5) Defense touches ball
6) Held ball rule applies : NO << J'ment
7) offense goes to floor with held ball
8) Rule 4.44 applies; travel whistle << J'ment

so no judgment in my mind.
:eek: :eek: :eek:

Making a judgment doesn't always, absolutely, automatically require a whistle.

BillyMac Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:37am
Quote From Mrs. Jaqua, My Fourth Grade Teacher ...
 
"There's no judge in judgment."

ILMalti Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 612234)
"There's no judge in judgment."
Ah English an other set of rule :D

ILMalti Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:51am
You see ch1town I see things differently

1) player in air with ball, any rule broken : NO << Fact
2) Is player passing, trying holding : OP ays none << Observation
3) defense comes from behind
4) Any illegal contact : NO << observation
5) Defense touches ball << Fact
6) Held ball rule applies : NO << fact based on rule
7) offense goes to floor with held ball << fact
8) Rule 4.44 applies; travel whistle << Automatic rule

so no judgment in my mind. not for this OP

And I agree with "Making a judgment doesn't always, absolutely, automatically require a whistle." Judgments are made throught the game, but on this OP there is none

Yes every idiot can read the rules, but it does not mean if you read them you understand them. fact


You also are right I am a rookie

ILMalti Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town (Post 612221)
Okay


No disrespect, but I'm going to leave you with this because it's obvious that you are either new to the craft or don't work a high level of ball, yet.
None taken. You are right. I can only learn from experienced fellows


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town (Post 612221)
Any idiot can read a rule book, pass the test & run up and down the court blowing their whistle, agreed?.
I am only in favour of understanding and applying the rules as the BB elders want it to be done. My confusion perhaps is understanding judgement call that override a rule.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town (Post 612221)
We even have some that don't own a book, but sits in the stands & makes all the calls, by rule... their misconception of the rule that is. But that's another story...
Agreed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town (Post 612221)
In addition to great PLAY CALLING ability, COMMUNICATION SKILLS, FITNESS, PERSONAL QUALITIES & ON/OFF-COURT PRESENSE,
GAME MANAGEMENT skills are a must to be successful!! Lead officials with the R & Crew Chief mentality knows that managing players/coaches emotions, knowing the time, score, etc, offensive/defensive schemes & game situation (who's trying to do what) is key... U1s & U2s are, well, just U1s & U2s :)
The game within the game!!

Let me stop, I should be charging you for this information :cool:
Do you have a PayPal account?
Totally agree;

Thank you

Ch1town Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town (Post 612221)
Let me stop, I should be charging you for this information :cool:
Do you have a PayPal account?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILMalti (Post 612244)
You are right.

Totally agree

Thank you
Not a problem, I PM'd you the fee & where to send it.
Thank YOU!

Johnny Ringo Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:49am
Wow. Did not expect this reaction.

In my opinion, the touch and it was slight touch - not even a slap - did not prevent the shotter from shooting. He simply just returned to the floor holding the ball in a shooting position.

I too, used my judgement and called a travel. My partner said this had to be a jump ball ... I was trying to see if I can find a rule that supported my call.

Ch1town Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo (Post 612255)
I was trying to see if I can find a rule that supported my call.


Sometimes we have to go to Rule 11 when all else fails...

Camron Rust Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILMalti (Post 612239)
You see ch1town I see things differently

1) player in air with ball, any rule broken : NO << Fact
2) Is player passing, trying holding : OP says none << Observation
3) defense comes from behind
4) Any illegal contact : NO << observation
5) Defense touches ball << Fact
6) Held ball rule applies : NO << fact based on rule
7) offense goes to floor with held ball << fact
8) Rule 4.44 applies; travel whistle << Automatic rule

so no judgment in my mind. not for this OP
Let me rewrite your list in what it really is. You're misusing the term judgment. Many things on the court are indeed facts but anytime you must make a decision, that is judgment.


<TABLE style="WIDTH: 671pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=894><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 223pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 10861" width=297><COL style="WIDTH: 74pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 3620" width=99><COL style="WIDTH: 89pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 4315" width=118><COL style="WIDTH: 285pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 13897" width=380><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20 vAlign=bottom><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 223pt; HEIGHT: 15pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl67 height=20 width=297>Action</TD><TD >Determination</TD><TD >Your term</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 285pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl69 width=380>What it really is</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20 vAlign=bottom><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 15pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl65 height=20>1) player in air with ball, any rule broken </TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl66>NO</TD><TD >fact</TD><TD >obsrervation/fact</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 30pt" height=40 vAlign=bottom><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 30pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl65 height=40>2) Is player passing, trying holding</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl66>OP says none</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl66>observation</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 285pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl70 width=380>judgement…you are judging/deciding between different possible actions...was the player passing, shooting or holding the ball?</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20 vAlign=bottom><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 15pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl65 height=20>3) defense comes from behind</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl66></TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl66></TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 285pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl70 width=380>observation/fact</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 45pt" height=60 vAlign=bottom><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 45pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl65 height=60>4) Any illegal contact</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl66>NO</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl66>observation</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 285pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl70 width=380>If there was clearly no contact, that could be called an observation or fact. If there was contact, you are judging whether it is legal or not legal.</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20 vAlign=bottom><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 15pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl65 height=20>5) Defense touches ball</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl66></TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl66>fact</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 285pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl70 width=380>obsrervation/fact</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20 vAlign=bottom><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 15pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl65 height=20>6) Held ball rule applies</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl66>NO</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl66>fact based on rule</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 285pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl70 width=380>This is judgment….deciding if a rule applies.</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20 vAlign=bottom><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 15pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl65 height=20>7) offense goes to floor with held ball</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl66></TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl66>fact</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 285pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl70 width=380>fact</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 30pt" height=40 vAlign=bottom><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 30pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl65 height=40>8) Rule 4.44 applies; travel whistle</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl66></TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl66>automatic rule</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 285pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid" class=xl70 width=380>judgement…you are judging whether a rule applies…even if is apparently obvious.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Adam Fri Jul 03, 2009 02:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILMalti (Post 612232)
Socrates never wrote anything down and relied on the students(Plato, socrates prized student) to put it down and Aristotle was Plato prime student,
So Plato is the rule book Please continue asking the only way to really get an understanding of the rules

The held ball rule is very specific about when a held ball occurs,I refer you to 4.25.2

The rule states "prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try" keep word prevents
the OP specifically says no change in airborne action to them or the ball: not a judgment call in this case
Don't presume I don't know the rule, I'm very aware of what this rule says. My first point is that the OP made his judgment at the time, and his post reflected that judgment. My second point is that this play always requires judgment, even if that judgment seems very easy. My third point is that I have no idea why you are hung up on that one word. Call it a "decision" if you must.

Johnny Ringo Fri Jul 03, 2009 04:38pm
Time to vote: What does everyone here basedon the OP? Travel or jump ball?

ILMalti Fri Jul 03, 2009 06:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 612280)
Don't presume I don't know the rule, I'm very aware of what this rule says. My first point is that the OP made his judgment at the time, and his post reflected that judgment. My second point is that this play always requires judgment, even if that judgment seems very easy. My third point is that I have no idea why you are hung up on that one word. Call it a "decision" if you must.
Fair compromise. Sorry for being such a stickler about the word, FOR ME Decision means, no personal influence, whilst judgement does.. NOTE the words "FOR ME".

Not for one moment have i doubted your BB rule knowledge. We do not happen to see things the same way at times and thus until we understand each otehr "style" in describing stuff we will have these misunderstandings

Thank you


Travel is my vote (obvioulsy)

Adam Fri Jul 03, 2009 06:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILMalti (Post 612315)
Travel is my vote (obvioulsy)
FWIW, travel is the obvious call given the description given in the OP.

I'm not sure what you mean by personal influence. Every call I make is influenced by whether I think it was a break of the rules or not.

Did the contact cause him to travel?
Did the contact substantially alter the shot?
Did those two feet land simultaneously?
Did he release the dribble before lifting his pivot?
Did the coach cross the line with her comments?
Did her foot hit the OOB line before she released the pass?
and finally
Did the defender's contact on the ball prevent the release?

Sometimes the answers to these questions are easier than others. The OP appears to have been an easy call if you know the rule. There are other cases where the determination is more difficult to make. As Bob says, benefit goes to a held ball if there's any doubt.

Back In The Saddle Fri Jul 03, 2009 06:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILMalti (Post 612232)
Socrates never wrote anything down and relied on the students(Plato, socrates prized student) to put it down and Aristotle was Plato prime student,
So Plato is the rule book Please continue asking the only way to really get an understanding of the rules

The held ball rule is very specific about when a held ball occurs,I refer you to 4.25.2

The rule states "prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try" keep word prevents
the OP specifically says no change in airborne action to them or the ball: not a judgment call in this case
If you are simply considering how to apply the rule to this OP's situation as he has presented it, then you not required to make any judgments.

However, if you are officiating that play in real life, you definitely have some judgments to make, based on the observable facts and your own experiences. That the player left the ground, that the defender touched the ball, and that the player returned to the ground without releasing the ball are all observable facts. Whether the defender's contact prevented the player from releasing the ball...that is the official's judgment. Even before that, you have to judge whether the player even attempted to release the ball, because with no attempted release there is no prevented release.

ILMalti Fri Jul 03, 2009 07:06pm
I regret bringing up my concern about the word "judgement call" or my belief that the rule book covers all required situations and if does not (cover the situation) it is not against the rules.

but to answer a couple of questions

"Even before that, you have to judge whether the player even attempted to release the ball" Would the "judgment " be based upon an officials own playing experience if the action is not that clear ? If an official had NO BB playing experience would they be able to come to the same conclusion that an experienced BB official has?

And since this "judgment call" is based on the official own BB experience that is why I said the "judgment call" are influenced by "perosnal influence".

Back In The Saddle Fri Jul 03, 2009 07:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILMalti (Post 612327)
I regret bringing up my concern about the word "judgement call" or my belief that the rule book covers all required situations and if does not (cover the situation) it is not against the rules.

but to answer a couple of questions

"Even before that, you have to judge whether the player even attempted to release the ball" Would the "judgment " be based upon an officials own playing experience if the action is not that clear ? If an official had NO BB playing experience would they be able to come to the same conclusion that an experienced BB official has?

And since this "judgment call" is based on the official own BB experience that is why I said the "judgment call" are influenced by "perosnal influence".
Right or wrong, qualified or unqualified, some way, some how, somebody has to make that determination. That somebody is you and me. That's why we make the big bucks. :D

Nevadaref Tue Jul 07, 2009 05:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo (Post 612153)
Strange play: Player A is an airborne shooter, the defender comes from behind a touches (more like grazes) the ball. The ball never came dislodged, loose or at anytime did player A lose control.

Player A just held onto the ball and returned to the floor - he never shot it, bobbled it, nothing ...

The case book says if the defender keeps the shooter from releasing it is a jump ball, but I am not sure that defender was kept from releasing it. The shooter just never shot it.

Thoughts?
Player A is not an airborne shooter. That would mean that he had already released the ball and was returning to the floor. See the first definition in rule 4.
You need to be precise in your terminology and call him an airborne player in the act of shooting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo (Post 612255)
Wow. Did not expect this reaction.

In my opinion, the touch and it was slight touch - not even a slap - did not prevent the shotter from shooting. He simply just returned to the floor holding the ball in a shooting position.

I too, used my judgement and called a travel. My partner said this had to be a jump ball ... I was trying to see if I can find a rule that supported my call.
Have you tried the NFHS Case Book? ;)

4.44.3 SITUATION A: A1 jumps to try for goal. B1 also jumps and: (a) slaps the
ball out of A1’s hands; (b) touches the ball but does not prevent A1 from releasing
the ball; (c) touches the ball and A1 returns to the floor holding the ball; or
(d) touches the ball and A1 drops it to the floor and touches it first after it
bounces. RULING: In (a) and (b), the ball remains live. In (c), a traveling violation.
In (d), a violation for starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. Since
the touching did not prevent the pass or try in (b), (c) and (d), the ball remains
live and subsequent action is covered by rules which apply to the situation.


Your partner was wrong. :eek:


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