When Is It Incidental?
 

Player A streaks down court, looking back for a long pass from his teammate. Player B defends by standing stationary, still as a statue, 10 feet in front of A's path. Players collide in an awful crash

1) with no player possessing the ball - it's still in flight
2) with A just catching the pass and turning his head to face forward
3) with Player B just catching the pass - while holding his position on the floor - just before A arrives.

What's the call? When is this type of contact 'incidental' ?

Our Morning League thanks you!

1: screening rules apply. contact may be severe and still be incidental. Assuming you have a crash where both players fall, you may need to call the foul; but by rule you would be justified in letting it go.
2: guarding rules apply, PC foul on A.
3. guarding rules apply, pushing/charging foul on the new defender, A.

If were talking HS, the way you describe it I'd go:

1. TC
2. PC (POE this year)
3. Foul on A

I'm going to have a foul on A in all of those situations. However, if it's just pick-up ball then we will have:

1) no call
2) check ball, A takes it out
3) foul on A

How about no call on all? After all, these thugs want to wreck their bodies! :D

BadNewsRef:

Regarding Situation #1, you might want to go to either the NFHS, NCAA, or FIBA rules books and read the defintions for guarding and screening and please apply them to this situation; you just might want to change your "no call" to a common foul (team control) by A1 against B1. In fact I am sure you will change your call.

MTD, Sr.

Mark, what if A1 makes every effort to stop upon contact with B1? Would this not qualify as a blind screen?

Ten feet away? I'd say no. That's 3.05 meters!

How do I know without asking a calculator?

Ciao

No. The player is running forward. It is his fault that his head is turned in another direction. The screen is not set BEHIND the moving player.

Remember that screens in the front or to the side of a player are BY RULE defined as being within that player's field of vision, whether or not he can actually see the screener. He is expected to look for the screener.

No, because B1 had obtained (NFHS)/established (NCAA/FIBA) a legal guarding position against A1.

MTD, Sr.

Let's Go To The Casebook ...
 

10.6.1 SITUATION A: B1 takes a certain spot on the court before A1 jumps in the air to catch a pass: (a) A1 lands on B1; or (b) B1 moves to a new spot while A1 is airborne. A1 lands on one foot and then charges into B1. RULING: In (a) and (b), the foul is on A1. (4-23-5d)

10.6.11 SITUATION D: A1 is running toward A’s goal but is looking back to receive a pass. B1 takes a position in the path of A1 while A1 is 10 feet away from B1. (a) A1 runs into B1 before receiving the ball; or (b) A1 receives the ball and before taking a step contacts B1. RULING: In both (a) and (b), A1 is responsible for contact. In (a), B1’s position is legal if A1 has been given two strides prior to contact. In (b), since the position of B1 is legal when A1 has the ball, the contact is charging by A1. (4-40)

While it is for a stationary opponent, the following rule defines the front or side of a player as being within the visual field.

4-40-3 . . . When screening a stationary opponent from the front or side (within the visual field), the screener may be anywhere short of contact.

I accept Nevada's explanation with regard to visual field. In the first scenario, however, LGP isn't an issue because A1 does not have the ball.

Don't forget that guarding can occur on an opponent without the ball too.
Basically, the same requirements apply as a screening situation. I quoted the screening rules before because the visual field concept comes from those and that is what you inquired about.

4-23-5 . . . Guarding a moving opponent without the ball:
a. Time and distance are factors required to obtain an initial legal position.
b. The guard must give the opponent the time and/or distance to avoid
contact.
c. The distance need not be more than two strides.
d. If the opponent is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position
before the opponent left the floor.

Mark, I think your reading skills are deteriorating :p

Those numbered responses I gave applied to "pick-up" basketball. My initial sentence stated I would call a foul on "A" in each situation.

I know guarding can come with and without the ball, but the question is which rules apply. LGP gives the defender more protection than screening principles.

Is he guarding him or trying to screen him? You need to made that decision, and then apply the appropriate rules.

Snaqs:

That was your problem when you played basketball in H.S., you never (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley) guarded your opponent if he did not have the ball, :D.

MTD, Sr.

Congratulations on finding my old high school coach. :)

Wow, the difference is very small. Sometimes guarding amounts to screening the player from getting to where he wants to go. I see your point though, but I had just assumed that with or without the ball was what made the difference between which rule to apply.

The only practical difference, as I see it, is that the visual field element only applies to screening. A player who is guarding has no such restrictions....only time/distance as determined by whether the player has the ball or is moving. A defender can take a guarding position outside of the visual field a stationary opponent with no requirement that they allow room for a step.

Okay, so how do you determine which rule comes into play? In the OP, the defender is really guarding by screening.

They indeed are very close and largely overlap except that....

"Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent...."

The defnintion of screen has no distiction between offense/defense (although you rarely see a defender set a screen).

Being in LGP has certain requirements. If those are not met (e.g., never facing the opponent), it is certainly possible that a legal screen could still be set but the screening principles with regards to subsequent movement are more restrictive than the guarding principles....no lateral movement, for example. Also, a screen requires time/distance even if the opponent has the ball. So, a player could, short of having LGP, set a screen on the offensive player (with or without the ball) without ever facing the offensive player if they give time/distance for the offensive player to stop or change directions.

This is how you have a foul on A1 when A1 runs up the back of stationary B4 who is guarding A4. B4, even unknowingly, set a screen on A1.

So the consensus is :

B established LGP at some point in time .

1) with no player possessing the ball - it's still in flight
Team Control foul on A . Ball given to B on sideline.
2) with A just catching the pass and turning his head to face forward
Player Control foul on A. Ball given to B sideline (regardless if B in Bonus)

3) with Player B just catching the pass - while holding his position on the floor - just before A arrives

Common foul on A. Ball given to B on sideline (assuming no bonus otherwise free throws)


Is above correct?