T after game ended
 

I thought I'd shared an interesting story. AAU game, NFHS rules.

Our team was down 2 when the final horn sounded. We're shaking hands with the other team, and the other team's coach who had been complaining all game (no T's during game), gives the ref some more crap. The ref T's him up and tells me to give him a shooter. I was aware of the rule, but had never seen it called.

All heck breaks loose. Parents and coaches arguing "the game's over, you can't do that!, etc...". The tournament director comes over. Big pow-wow.

Anyway, we get to shoot our technical (because, of course, the ref is right, and the rules support him). Our guy misses the first one, and the ref signals end of game. I ask if we can shoot the second one, and he says that we don't shoot it, because it doesn't change the outcome. I'm sure he's right, but he let us shoot the other one when I told him that he might have to 'T' up the other coach again.

We made the 2nd free throw and the other coach stormed off without another word, and we lost by 1.

good job Ref.

he's right, no need to shoot the second shot.

If he had T'd the coach up again, then you could have shot the 2nd free throw of the first T followed by the other two.

Good job on the refs for making the call.

I'll bet that coach doesn't take the final horn to be some sort of free-license again.

Ditto
 

One of my partners WHACKED a HC the other night after the game ended too. The offending coach's team won by five.

The coach "doubled as a commentator" early in the game and after I got tired of hearing it a few times up and down the court, he got the ole stop sign and a verbal from me - "Coach, no more. I'll ref, you coach. We don't need the commentary." I informed my partners.

After the game ended and as we were leaving the court, my partner said the coach got abusive to him and he WHACKED him so he could report it to the league and our assignor.

End of the game doesn't give them a free shot!

Why in the world are the game officials still on the court watching the handshake line in the first place.

MTD, Sr.

'Cause it gives them a warm feeling inside.:)

Massachusetts rules state we must during scholastic play.

Absolutely the dumbest rule in all of sports.

No, the dumbest is the one that allows teams to have coaches. :D

There was no place for him to go. He had the next game on that court, too. It was NFHS rules, but it wasn't a high school gym/game where they jog off as soon as the horn sounds.

dsturdy5:

The Massachusetts Interscholatic Athletic Association has nothing to do with AAU basketball tournaments, therefore, I ask once again, why were the game officials still on the court watching the handshake line.

MTD, Sr.

Coach Bill:

There is always a place to go. Get out of the gym and go somewhere, but do not stick around on the court.

MTD, Sr.

Yep - and if you can't think of a place to go - ask someone. There's always someone willing to tell you where to go!! :D

Mark, it's not always practical, to be honest.

The other point here, WRT MA basketball, is that this couldn't have been done under their rules. They have stripped the officials of this authority so that once the handshake begins technical fouls cannot be called. (That's how I read their little interpretation from Mary, anyway).

Go to the opposite end/side of the court from where the fans are congregating with the teams. Or walk with a purpose to a destination without making eye contact with anyone.

A fan or coach really has to go out their way to make contact with me, no matter what the venue.

It's not a bad practice. Had a couple games last weekend where the time between games was three minutes. I normally stand at half court but haven't focused on how far from the table I stand. I've only had a problem one time at an AAU game, and that was when the parent went out of her way to request our names so she could report us "to AAU." I learned my lesson about engaging them at that time. Even though I simply referred her to the site director with her request, my partner decided to engage her in "conversation" that went nowhere.

There is ALWAYS a corner out of the way to go to. It might not be a bus trip for the coach to get there, but it will be far enough that he has to make an effort to go to you. That is probably all that's needed for a report or turn-over to the event admin.

Stock answer #1: "I'm sorry. We're not allowed to give out our names. It's a rule of the witness protection program."

Stock answer #2: "You'll have to ask our parole officer. He's in the locker room. I can go get him if you like."

Stock answer #3: "I'm Earl Strom. He's Jake O'Donnell."

I never say my name is Skippy Weaselpants. Giving out my real name defeats the purpose.

My answer: "You'll have to take your complaints to the tournament director."
My partner got into a discussion with her that ended with more animosity than it started with.

"Eric Straton, rush chairman, damn glad to meet you!"

Plus and minus.

The official was 100% correct that a technical foul could be charged following the final horn for poor behavior. However, if one is going to go that route and rely upon the rules for justification, then one had darn well better conduct the entire procedure strictly by the book. That means that he screwed up by permitting the 2nd FT to be administered. Had the coach argued about that, he would have been correct. Now what does one do? -- T the coach again when he is right and the official has absolutely no rules support for what he just did? :eek:

Good call, poor execution.

Double "O" Means License To Kill ...
 

Stock answer #4: Bond. James Bond.

Is It Over ???
 

I understand that, I was just taking your comment in a vacuum that after a game is over, we are not always running off of the court (as much as I'd like to).

As for those who said there is always a place to go hide even in the gym, that is typically correct. Do your best to be unavailable in between games.

Now that is the dumbest thing possible. The officials have the authority to call the T until they leave the visual confines of the court. To have them stick around and not be able to do anything is an exercise in futility. HOW DUMB!!!!!!!!!!

I believe that someone from MA posted that while the officials can't assess technical fouls during the PGHS they can note any misbehavior in a report to the league/state office who will presumably hand down a fine or suspension of some kind.

Below is taken directly from the MIAA site:


Prior to a full description of the post-game handshake protocol, it is important to review two rule interpretations which impact the ceremony:
•
NF Basketball Rule 2, Section 5, Article 7 has been adopted, “When the referee either signs the scorebook following the game, or when a non-verbal confirmation is exchanged between the referee and the official scorer, the score is then final and considered approved.” Thus, the post-game handshake will never impact the final score.
•
MIAA Sportsmanship Rule 49.8 states- “Fighting and unsportsmanlike conduct penalties will be within the authority of the official at all times at the contest site. The official’s authority extends to pre and post game oversight.” Implementation of this rule could have future consequences on the offender, but does not affect the final score.

And the possibility of "future consequences" is not an acceptable trade, IMO, for losing the authority to issue a T.

Again, the dumbest rule in all of sports is the requirement of the officials to stick around for the post-game warm-fuzzies.

But it would be cowardly and lazy for Mass. officials not to do. :D

I'm all for sporting behavior, congratulating the victors and winning and losing with class. Generally, in our society that means a handshake. If one can't do that simple gesture then he/she doesn't belong in HS athletics, and should go play in the NBA.

Of course, safety and common sense have to prevail over tradition and formalities. If the situation isn't conducive to pleasant interaction, then get the heck out of there.

I'm with the "second FT unecessary / can't change outcome so don't shoot it" line of thought. But does that mean if the coach T'ed up is winning by three at the horn, then there are no FTs shot at all (or until he gets two 'post-game' T's)?

Yep, that's exactly what the rule states.

There's even a case book play which spells that out.

relevant case book plays
 

5.6 COMMENT B: If a technical foul occurs after the ball has become dead to
end a quarter, the next quarter is started by administering the free throws. This
applies even when the foul occurs after the first half has ended. It also applies
when the foul occurs after the second half has ended, provided the score is tied.
If the score is not tied, the free throws are administered unless the outcome of
the game will not be affected. If the outcome is not already decided, the free
throws are attempted immediately as if the foul had been a part of the fourth
quarter. In this case, if any overtime period is necessary, it will start with a jump
ball. The division line throw-in following the technical foul cannot be carried over
to the overtime as the fourth quarter ended with the last free throw. (5-6-4)

5.6.2 SITUATION H: Team A is leading 61-60. B1 fouls A1 in the act of shooting
as time expires. As the officials approach the scorer's table, the Team A coach
rushes the floor and begins screaming obscenities at the officials. RULING: A flagrant
technical foul is assessed to the Team A coach. The foul at the expiration of
time is no longer ignored. The flagrant technical foul on the Team A coach created
a false double foul situation, which may affect the outcome of the game. The
penalties are administered in the order in which they occurred. With the lane
cleared, A1 shoots two free throws for being fouled in the act of shooting. If both
are successful, the game is over. If one or both are missed, an eligible player from
Team B shoots the two technical foul free throws. The free throws will determine
the outcome of the game or an extra period will be played. COMMENT:
Jurisdiction of the officials is terminated when all officials leave the visual confines
of the playing area. While the preferred action would be for all officials to
immediately leave the playing area, such an observable action by the coach should
be penalized as unsporting or flagrant. (10-4-1c; 4-19-9; 5-6-2 Exception 3)
5.6.2 SITUATION E: A1 has been awarded two free throws after time has
expired in the fourth quarter. Team B leads 62-60 and A1 misses the first free
throw. RULING: The second free throw will not be attempted. (5-6-2 Exception 3)
5.6.2 SITUATION F: Following the final horn in a game which has Team A leading
62-60, the coach of Team A sprints after the game officials and shouts profanity
at the referee who has just left the playing court outside the end line.
RULING: The referee shall charge the coach with a flagrant technical foul and the
results of the two free throws will determine whether an extra period will be necessary.
The jurisdiction of the officials had not ended as the referee was still within
the visual confines of the playing area. (2-2-4)

5.6.2 SITUATION D: Team A trails 60-59 with just a few seconds remaining in
the fourth quarter of play. A1 is fouled in the act of shooting by B1 but time
expires before the ball is in flight. A1 is awarded two free throws. The coach of
Team B is charged with a technical foul before A1’s attempts. A1 makes: (a) neither
throw; (b) one throw; or (c) both throws. When does Team A shoot the free
throws resulting from the technical foul? RULING: In (a) and (b), the two free
throws for the technical foul are attempted as part of the fourth quarter as the foul
occurred before the fourth quarter had ended. In (a), the two free throws for the
technical foul will determine if an extra period is necessary. In (b), the one successful
free throw ties the game and if either free throw for the technical foul is
successful, no extra period is required. In (c), the two successful free throws dictate
there will be no extra period. The free throws for the technical foul are not
administered as the outcome of the game has been determined. A quarter or extra
period does not end until all free throws which could affect the outcome of the
game have been attempted and related activity has been completed. (4-41-1; 5-
6-3 Exception; 6-7-7)

Yes, and in the OP, the 2nd should not have been shot unless and until a 2nd T was called against the coach. At that time, you would shoot the 2nd shot from the first T, then the 2 from the 2nd T (if necessary).

I don't think it's a stretch to say that many coaches are unaware of this rule.

This would be an interesting scene:

A wins by 3.

Coach A: "We won in spite of you two lousy low-life &*^$^&$'s."

Official: tweet "Technical foul, Coach A."

Scorer: "Do we shoot free throws for that, Mr. Ref?"

Official: "No"

Coach A: "See, he doesn't know what he's doing. %(*&^% idiot!"

Official: tweet "Now we shoot."

Yes, T him again even if the coach is right. I've been T'ed for arguing with officials who did things with no rules support. Just to mention a couple I've been T'ed for arguing:

1. Ref calls the ball out of bounds when it hits the side of backboard.
2. Ref calls the ball out of bounds when it hits the top (not the support).
3. Ref gives the ball underneath when intentional foul called at half-court.
4. Ref gives the ball at half court when intentional foul called underneath basket (more common). They administer as if it was a T.
5. Ref says team control foul (no free throws) on a push on a rebound. He insists team maintains team control while shot is in air.


Also - in our game I thought the refs did a fantastic job. They knew the rules and had the other coach baffled because of a couple situations:

1. Called over-and-back when we tipped a pass, but his team touched it last in the front court and then touched it first in the back court. Coach is arguing "they tipped it!", but the ref got it right. Coaches rarely know this rule.
2. Called over-and-back on a sideline inbounds pass where the kid landed on one foot in the front court and then his second foot came down in the back court. He didn't catch it in the air and land in the backcourt.

The other coach thought he was getting screwed but didn't earn his T until after the game. I thought he deserved one during the game. I've been given T's for less, but that's OK. It was a well-officiated game and we still lost!

Coach, on 2, did the player catch it in the air, then land normally? If so, the FC foot can land first without violation. If, however,
a) he caught in the air, landed on the one foot in the FC, then held the other foot in the air for a short time..... or
b) he caught it after landing, with one foot down in the FC, then put the other down in the BC

those would be violations.

b. is what he told the other coach and I thought the ref was correct. The other coach still thought that was OK since it was an inbounds pass.

Gotcha. Thanks, and he did get it right.

Maybe you should try a new approach to your argument when you know you're right. :D It takes A LOT for the average official to T up a coach if there's even a slight chance the coach may be right. JMO

Then again, 1-5 are all mistakes that are made mostly at the lower levels so perhaps you're just dealing with inexperienced officials.

It's AAU where I see these errors made, so I'm sure you're right. And, yes I do need to work on a new approach. One approach I abandoned before even trying it, was bringing out the rulebook. I'm open to suggestions.

Sadly, that might actually work at that level with officials who don't know any better.

You're rarely going to succeed in convincing an official, at least at the time of the infraction/during the run of play, that you are right and they should change their call. You can voice your disagreement and calmly tell them why but any type of carrying on or demonstrative action puts you at risk of getting the business.

The rulebook thing may not be a terrible idea to try at half time or after the game IF you had a good rapport with crew during the game. Make sure to do it discretely and respectfully (no "I told you so"s) and I believe most officials would be open to hearing what you have to say.

First of all, I appreciate coaches like yourself who know their rules!!
Beats the heck out of the freshman coach I had last night who says his player was fouled because he was contacted on his hand during the shot :rolleyes:
Wish I would've handled that in a better way, but that's another story.

I wouldn't bring out a rulebook during halftime or right after the game. Instead I'd try this approach:

"This is your ballgame to manage, with all due respect, I think your ruling is incorrect. If we can discuss it later I'm willing to put a steak dinner of MY choice on the line."

I like that. I don't get the call changed, but I never was going to anyway, and the situation is diffused, calming myself down.

And, as far as bringing out the rulebook, the one time I made a move to get the rulebook out, I was told very sternly:

"You bring that rulebook out, and we're gonna have a problem".

It wasn't a physical threat (I think), but a "you're gonna get tossed" threat. I posted that story on here awhile back, and everyone made it very clear that the rulebook is a big no-no.

Right, for a variety of reasons, it's a no-no in basketball. With me, a smile and a "I think you're wrong on that rule," if said quietly and discretely, might work. It won't change a call or ruling, but it will spur me to check the book later.

OK, Ch1, the floor is yours. We don't run out of paper or ink on this here Internet thing.

Okay but I'm embarassed about it. So for a summer league, coach is kind of loud & vocal about me "missing the foul". My first mistake was addressing it during a live ball in transition :eek:

I ask him where did he get him at?
He says on the hand, didn't you hear it :eek: :eek:
I say you must not be the HEAD freshman coach... because contact on the hand while a player is shooting is not a foul... while they are holding the ball or dribbling the ball either for that matter. (in a not so calm manner) :o

He didn't say another word for the whole game, he barely coached his kids. I think I embarassed him in front of his kids & I'm not too proud of that. It was unacceptable to my standards & disrespectful... even though he was out of line & wrong (my pet peeve). But someday he'll be a head varsity or NCAA coach.
I plan to apologize to him when I work there next Wednesday.

A local University Assistant Coach, who is the Varsity Head Coach at a high school where I work called me over this season after a call.

She said, "I know you made the call the way you saw it and thats fine. I understand the ruling to be this. She proceeded to make a short statement about her interp. She concluded to say I would appreciate it if you could look it up and get back to me in case I am mistaken."

I tell you she was a class act, made the whole situation be about making sure we both were understanding the call. I looked up the ruling at half time and found out that what I had called was correct but how I adminsitered after the call was incorrect.

She thanked me for looking and said not many would do that and tell her what they found.

That's usually the approach that works for (on) me. If it's during the game, maybe a polite request to check with the other officials on the rule.