Looking for consistency
 

Here is my rant on undershirts. As a former official and now coach, I sense a lack of consistency in policing the undershirts. I know that in reading this board and conversations with officials, I know you all dislike being fashion police. My problem is the lack of consistency. My questions is, do your boards decide at the beginning of the year what is acceptable and what is not?

In my situation, we had vegas gold uniforms. Its a very hard color to come close on in undershirts. Now, I will preempt this by saying the uniforms were there before I began coaching, and I have since ordered black. But over our season, our kids were told white was ok, then then next game, its not, sometimes it was yellow, or when we had kids wearing black undershirts that were not really visible unless the kid leaned over. But over the course of the year, they are ok, not ok, and back and forth. Now I expect my problem to diminish because of new uniforms, but at what point should I expect some consistency? I can know the rules, explain them to the kids, but when a man/woman in a black and striped shirt tells the kids is ok, they look at me like I am lying.

The problem is not so much in the rule, but that people are idiots. Um, I mean that it can be interpreted different ways by different officials.

ART. 5 . . . Undershirts shall be a single solid color similar to the torso of the
jersey and shall be hemmed and not have frayed or ragged edges. If the
undershirt has sleeves, they shall be the same length. A visible manufacturer's
logo/trademark/reference is not permitted on the undershirt.

To me, white is "similar" enough to gold to be passable. So is yellow.

The intent of the rule was to avoid confusion -- a white or yellow undershirt with a gold jersey is not confusing.

Unfortunately, we have idiots ... I mean, some officials ... who either don't read the rule book, or have such a gross misunderstanding of the rules, that they enforce rules as they were never meant to be enforced.

These same officials, having expertly enforced the undershirt (or jersey tuck, or coaches box, or some other administrative anomaly) then come out on the court during live play and kick block/charges, call fouls on blocked shots, and in general screw up the part of the game that matters!

I'm not sure that the NFHS or state associations can do much about it though, as there will always be those that simply "Don't get it".

You make some excellent points. The main problem is that people simply don't read what the rule says and then follow it.

I would NEVER allow a visible white undershirt with a gold jersey. It is not similar. It is a totally different color. Just as blue is different from red.
I would allow yellow under gold or vice versa. Those are just different shades of a color.

I saw a diagram on an NFHS document in the last couple of years (can't remember exactly where right now, but it may have been in the preseason guide) that clearly showed that if the undershirt was visible in the V above the neckline by shading that area in the picture, then it had to be the proper color. Prior to seeing that picture, I had not been diligent about enforcing that, but now I do. Of course, that does not mean that I consider the undershirt to be visible if it only shows when the kid bends over at the waist.

I seriously doubt that there will ever be consistency on this. Just look at the difference between the posts by Brad and me. He doesn't seem to think that having the players tuck in their jerseys or enforcing the coaching box restrictions are important. I take care of those without exception.

Does that mean that I screw up block/charge calls or can't judge blocked shots? Well, I've worked the state tournament in three of the last four years, so it seems that those aspects of my game are okay.

You've proved my point better than I could have if I had written two pages.

I can't tell if you are trolling or if you are completely serious.

Bravo, sir! Bravo! :)

That was a completely serious post.

We just differ on this. That's all.

I think that we are making exactly the same point. You believe that people who do it like I do are the problem, and I hold the same opinion about doing it your way.

Hence I told the coach that consistency will likely never be achieved in this area.

What age level / type of program?

In summer, I don't care. In less-than-HS, I wouldn't care. In HS and above, I enforce it. I would not allow White or Black with VegasGold, but it needs to be visible during normal action --not when bending over, not just the over the shoulder portion of a sleeveless shirt a little bit wider than the jersey shoulder, ...

Consistently inconsistent
 

Coach, I believe you are correct to rant here. We, as officials, are inconsistent enforcing this depending on your area and what you have been instructed to enforce – as you see by the replies to date. I have been in the situation, “But the last refs said it was ok,” which makes my job even more difficult. My situation is a hybrid of what you have already read:

1) We enforce the undergarment rule only at HS level (to include F and JV, not below) but also during the spring league to ensure “consistency” and to ensure the players know it is not ok at any time.

2) A differing color (white with gold for example) would be unacceptable. As Nevada points out, our Annual State Briefings have included slides with what is acceptable and what is not. Off shades of the same color that come close are usually ok. As Brad points out, I understand the intent of the rule – but, my Association doesn’t see it that way and wants it enforced – period.

3) The uniform “tuck-in rule” is a pet-peeve of ours and we have been instructed to enforce it at all times on the court and not allow players to enter the court if they are not ready.

4) I also agree with Brad that you have to be able to enforce the rules (“these same officials, having expertly enforced the undershirt (or jersey tuck, or coaches box, or some other administrative anomaly) then come out on the court during live play and kick block/charges, call fouls on blocked shots, and in general screw up the part of the game that matters!”). Credibility is important.

It certainly is problematic and apparently, "no one size fits all" is applied.
My $.02

I have a question for coaches. Why not have your kids wear the right colors or no undershirt at all and you will not have to worry about what an official says or does not say? As a coach don't you control what your kids wear?

This is about thing 100 on my list of important things. If I see an undershirt that is illegal I will enforce the rule, but there are so many other things that are more important. I have never seen SportsCenter make an issue over the misapplication of a uniform rule.

Peace

I've never seen SportsCenter make an issue of anything in high school games. If that was my criterion....

Just to throw this in the mix, we enforce it in our local kids rec league at all grade levels (3rd-HS). This is a purely recreational (not competitive) league and all our players receive reversible jerseys in our local HS colors (green and white). Home teams wear white and if they are wearing an undershirt, it must be white. Visiting teams wear green and if they are wearing an undershirt, it must be a dark color (not necessarily green, because we don't want to make parents have to go out and buy another shirt). If a kid, boy or girl, is wearing the wrong color undershirt, they have the option of removing it or rolling the sleeves up and securing them with tape. Boys will usually remove the shirt and girls will usually tape the sleeves.

You know ESPN runs high school basketball games? ;)

Peace

True, but I've never seen them make an issue out of the officiating in HS games.

Other than last second shots in state tournament games.

I guess it is all relative. I have seen them dissect a play in high school not much different than they have in other games. Or comment on if the officials got a foul right or a rule right during the highlight.

And the point was not really about SportsCenter (I could have used High School Lites, but you would not have likely known what that was), it is the fact that no one comments about uniform issues in the media.

Peace

Why worry about something you can't control? Simply take the officials out of the equation. You'll have black uniforms next year, so don't allow anything but black t-shirts.

BTW, I agree that white is not yellow, is not vegas gold nor is it a similar color. White under a gold jersey is not even close.

How about navy blue under black? You know there is going to be at least one kid :D

He'll be taking it off.

Black means black.

What about faded black? Or what if you have an Opal Black jersey and you wear a plain black undershirt? Does that apply too? ;)

Peace

Are You Taking Mark's Meds?
 

JRut - this would be great! Unfortunately, I personally haven't seen it applied yet.

It is my understanding that it is a requirement that a member of each school have a representative at our State's Mandatory Meeting annually - so they hear it each yr and it shouldn't be a surprise......

I'm color blind, I would literally have to stare at the kids for about 5 minutes to notice.

Hopefully, you don't do too many games with a one man crew. :)

There are have been many games where I would report a team as 'black' and then when my partners have a call I notice them saying 'red'.

In AAU and summer leagues I quite often have to ask players what color they are wearing.

But understand the spirit of the rule and why it was written -- to prevent confusion. (i.e. undershirts of one team are similar in color to their opponents uniform)

Is white or yellow similar enough to gold that it will not cause confusion? Yes.

My pet peeve is guys that don't know how to administer this rule well. It is easy to get kids to tuck in their shirts and you don't have to embarrass them or make a spectacle about it.

I was working with a co-official a few years ago who had just called a very weak foul on a player, giving him his 4th foul. The coach tried to sub in for his player and my co-official didn't want to let the sub in because his jersey wasn't tucked in!

This is a complete lack of game awareness -- he had no idea it was the kid's 4th foul, it was a terrible call to begin with (foul on a blocked shot), and then wants to compound problems by not allowing the sub in! (I told the kid to tuck his shirt in and come in the game)

It's just been my experience that the guys that are hung up on shirttails, undershirt colors, and other minute details of the rules, generally can't referee.

If it's not going to slow or halt the game, just have the kid tuck in his shirt (as you did -- good job) and get him on the floor.

Obviously, removing an undershirt or switching to a different color can't be done without leaving the game area, so that's a different scenario.

Sounds like your partner that game must have been the guy who spends a buck to save 25 cents. Or is so proud of his gold medal, he bronzes it.

Wouldnt surprise me if they show up in navy...But yes, black should make my life at least a little bit easier.

Not going to disagree on principle here and as the player comes on to the court, I have no problem having them "tuck it in."

I'm just saying what we've been instructed to do - it does slow the game down, "i.e. - "Coach, I need another player as this ones not ready to go." By the time the new player comes off the bench the original player has his shirt in and is ready to go. Guess their "point" is to teach the player a lesson......I'm not a big fan.

If a kid is at least in the process of tucking the shirt as he enters, I say he's okay. But if this kid has his shirt totally out, and wants to enter, he's out of luck. Why is the shirttail out in the first place? If I'm the coach, I tell my entire team that if they want to play in the game, they need to be entirely ready to go in at a moments notice. This would include the shirttail.

I'm not a big fan either BUT, our association and state association takes the position that the head coach is responsible for the bench personnel and subs and, if a sub comes to the table and attempts to enter with his/her shirt tail out, they don't come in. The rationale is that it is the coach's responsibility to make sure subs are ready and we are justified in not allowing the sub in the game. We are instructed to address this position with the coach's at the pre-game conference and enforce it. We had an official lose a state tournament assignment in a later round becuase he allowed subs to "tuck it in" as they were entering the game from the table. The state rep told him after the game that the head coach had plenty of opportunity to have that sub ready and chose not to do it. The punishment to the coach is his/her sub doesn't come in. The state rep called our assignor and told him not to allow the official to work in later rounds based upon his "non-enforcement" of rules. Pretty harsh but when in Rome...

This is completely and utterly absurd.

Brad, holding your emotions in like this is only going to hurt you in the long run. Let it out, man.

Agreed but the man from the state association was quite adamant about it! He went on and on about it being a point of emphasis for the state from initial interpretation meeting on. Personally I think the guy is a jerk but...

Given that the home team is required to wear white, that would mean that a white undershirt under a gold uniform (implictly the visiting team) IS a similar color to the opponents uniform and therefore not acceptable.

Even if the home team is not wearing white, it is not close enough for a "gold" uniform unless it is a really pale gold.

So if it's a really pale gold you will let them wear the white t-shirt, but if it's just sort of pale gold then you won't let them wear the white
t-shirt? :confused:

It's that kind of hair-splitting that (I believe) Brad is decrying here.

Wait a second! The hair has to match, too?

Yes. If they are wearing green uniforms, it helps if they are aliens. Or if they're from Iowa.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/__GRSmxq46O...ir%2Bstars.jpg

Sigh...I don't even know what to say to you anymore.:D

Wow, I'm glad I got out of there in time.

If only Jurassic were here to see you've been made speechless....
:)

That boy is definitely not from western Iowa. You wouldn't catch any grass-headed idiots in those parts, and I should know because I teach in that part of the state. :D

So...all the grass-headed idiots are in eastern Iowa? That must make for some fun games.

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thu...ope_smoker.jpg

Nah, we shipped them all to Portland back in '03.

Reminds me of an intramural team in college from the asian student association. They intentionally wore no numbers on front and completely identical black shirts, black shoes, black shorts and black headbands. They knew it could be difficult to tell asians apart and were trying to make it hard to pick up your man in a man defense. It actually worked, to an extent, but it didn't overcome the height disadvantage they had. :)

So that's where all those coaches came from! That explains a lot. :p

My problem is coaches that don't care about what the rule is and 1) make the official enforce it and 2) get mad when the official(s) enforce (or fail to enforce) it in a way they don't like.

If you are bothered by inconsistent enforcement, the answer is simple: don't let your players wear illegal undershirts. Tell coaches that do that you don't appreciate that and that you expect them to honor the rule. You are just as responsible as we are for making sure the rules are followed, especially when you have total control over the situation.

Mark Padgett's Is More Realistic Looking ...
 

Someone should send one of those to this guy.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_1OMiSrEJXn...kercloseup.jpg

That makes no sense at all. If my team is wearing gold uniforms, what color is your team wearing? WHITE. So you're going to let one team wear white uniforms and the other team wear white t-shirts under their gold jerseys. C'mon Brad. :)

The rule was written the same reason all uniform rules are written: so the team looks like a team.

No, white is in no way similiar to gold. That's like saying blue is similiar to green.

Don't forget that he is going to treat both teams equally, so the home team in the white jerseys is going to be permitted to wear gold/yellow undershirts. :eek:

really late to this one
 

Its funny to me that coaches will ask officials before a game to be sure to have "my player change their shirt because the player doesn't believe me."

I have no problem obliging, but coach you are in charge of your team, and who gets playing time. Part of the rules governing the coach is that their team will attempt to play within the rules....which unfortunately includes what is worn.

Coaches, take control of your teams. You are in charge of who gets playing time. If you have a kid that can't play any D, how long are you going let them play? It is obvious that the players don't respect you enough, if you cannot get them to conform to the rules.

A comment that I have found useful in talking with players, especially if they are thinking about playing basketball beyond HS:
"#34 there are college coaches watching you tonite, and they want to be sure that you are coachable," (meaning if you can't follow the simple rules, they don't have time to teach you the stuff you should already understand).

I would say pointing out the fact that the home team must be wearing white is valid. I also agree that this, like some other areas, is something I don't want to split hairs about. Since I don't want to split hairs, the team must have on the correct color undershirts period.

When it comes to shirts being tucked in, I'm not so strict when they come in the game. I would just tell them to tuck it in before they enter the game. If all three officials are on the same page, how many times would this really happen in a game? I would also like to point out how stupid I think the whole shirt thing is anyway. Raise your hand if you've told a kid to tuck in his shirt and watched him/her spend a stupid amount of time arranging their shirt so it would come out again. When I played, I would tuck it in, raise my arms so the shirt would allow my freedom of movement and get on with it. Then again, I also liked to double tie my shoes so I wouldn't have to spend time with them later. Silly me for not doing all these cool things that really add points to the scoreboard. :eek: