Multiple Foul ?
 

This situation comes from a friend of mine:

I'm trail, A1 attempts a 3 point shot and B1 fouls him before A1 returns to the floor and the shot went in. At the same time, my partner has a whistle on A2 fouling B2 in the post, the whistles were so close together, we determined they came at the same time. We got together and determined we had 2 fouls to record in the book. One on A2 and one on B1. Ok, no problem. We reported the 2 fouls, informed the coaches of what happened, then inbounded the ball on the endline using the AP arrow for resumption of play, telling the scorer to change the arrow direction after the ball has been inbounded.

In thinking it over, should we have put A1 on the line since he was fouled in the act of shooting, and resumption of play would have been after the foul shot?

What if team B was in the bonus at the time? Should we have cleared the lane, shoot A1 foul shot, go to the other end, clear the lane and let B shoot the 1 and 1, then go to the AP arrow, or vice versa?

Should we have awarded any free throws at all? The coaches didn't say a thing, but I don't think we handled it correctly......thoughts?

False double is what you have. Penalize in order; you have to figure which happened first. there's no provision for AP here, either.
So, assuming the shooting foul was first, you would clear the lane and shoot one shot for A1.
Then B gets the ball for the foul called against A2. If B is in the bonus, you march down and shoot the free throw(s) with the lane occupied and resume from there.

Snaq, these were not false double fouls, they were Simultaneous Fouls which should go to POI.

POI would be a made basket with Team B taking the ball out anywhere along the endline. (I think)

You think correctly. :)

NO Free Throws for either team and resume from the POI.

Figure out which one came first and go with that.

Calling a "simultaneous foul" here will do nothing other than make both coaches mad at you and completely confuse all players, coaches, fans, and anyone involved in the game. This is the worst option.

If you can't figure out which one came first, then choose the most obvious foul and/or the one that makes the most sense.

From your description, it sounds like the best option in your case is to count the basket and put A1 on the line for one free throw. This is the obvious call.

Don't make your job harder than it already is by complicating plays that don't need to be complicated.

I am sorry for the long post.
 

MajorCord:

I am going to assume that this was a game played using NFHS Rules (but the ruling "should" be the same for a game played using NCAA Men's/Women's Rules).


First: By definition this is a false double foul (NFHS R4-S19-A9; NCAA R4-S29-A4) and is a particular type of FDF called a simultaneous foul (NFHS R4-S19-A10; NCAA R4-S29-A2e); it is NOT a multiple foul or a false multiple foul.

Second: I assume from the way you described B1's foul against A1, the ball was in flight, and therefore, there was no team control at the time that B1 fouled A1 and A2 fouled B2.

Third: The rules get jumbled at this point with regard to Point-of-Interruption (POI) and Alternating Possession (AP, which is an abomination upon the great game of basketball but I digress). So let us only look at this from the NFHS stand point and worry about a ruling using NFHS Rules.

Fourth: POI: NFHS R4-S36-A1 applies in this play and either/or NFHS R4-S36-S2b and/or c as well. You do not say whether or not Team B is in the bonus (I am gonig to assume that A2's foul did not put Team B into the bonus) but the penalty for B1's foul is definitely free throws, and A1 field goal attempt was successful and should be counted.

Fifth: In the Ancient Days(National Basketball Committee of the United States and Canada, when every thing was good and right in the world of baketball) there was a Casebook Play that was identical to NFHS Casebook Play 4.19.10, the ruling in that Casebook Play was that the fouls in the false double foul were committed simultaneously (There was no definition of simultaneous foul in the Ancient Days but the NFHS and NCAA recognized that fouls committed simultaneously by oppossing teams were a FDF.) and that if free throws were part of the penalty for either foul, they would be awarded (the player would shoot the free throws with no players lined up on the free-throw lane) and that the ball would be put back into play with a jump ball by any two players (one from each team) at the center circle.

Sixth: The OP is similar to NFHS Casebook Play 4.19.10, because the fouls occured when neither team was in control of the ball. This would lead us to believe that NFHS R4-S36-S2c and NFHS R6-S4-A3g would apply to the OP.

Seventh, Part 1: BUT, NFHS R4-S36-S2b would apply because A1 is entitled to a free throw.

Seventh, Part 2: AND, NFHS R4-S36-S2c and NFHS R6-S4-A3g would NOT apply because a goal was involved when the game was interrupted.

Eighth: My RULING: Score A1's field goal; charge both A2 and B1 with personal fouls; and play is resumed with A1 awarded one free throw because of B1's PF as if B1's foul was the only foul that occured.

Ninth: NCAA jumbles its definitions of AP and POI, so that the rules locations do not correspond very well to the NFHS Rules Book, but the result would be the same as the NFHS.

This is my story and I am sticking to it until somebody gives me a better answer.

MTD, Sr.

In other words, make no effort to follow the rules and do it the right way, just take the easy way out and ignore one of the fouls because you think that calling both would make the coaches mad. :rolleyes:

Terrible advice. :(

A real official doesn't care what the coaches think.

The coach who is truly going to be upset is the one that you screw by allowing an opponent to foul one of his players without penalty. That's the guy who is going to be mad at you and rightly so. :eek:

Are you saying that we shouldn't call a travel when a player jumps to catch a pass, turns into the defender & crashes into him/her :D

How about using what's in the NFHS rules book?

4-19-10 . . . A simultaneous foul (personal or technical) by opponents is a
situation in which there is a foul by both teams which occurs at approximately the
same time, but are not committed by opponents against each other.

PENALTIES: (Rule 10 Summary)
1. No free throws:
a. For each common foul before the bonus rule is in effect.
b. For a player-control or team-control foul.
c. For double personal or technical fouls (point of interruption).
d. For simultaneous personal or technical fouls by opponents (point of
interruption).

and from the NFHS case book:

SIMULTANEOUS FOUL
4.19.10 SITUATION: B1 fouls dribbling A1 near the division line. At approximately
the same time, A2 fouls B2 in the lane near Team A's basket. RULING: This
is a simultaneous personal foul. B1 and A2 are charged with personal fouls. The
ball shall be put back in play at the point of interruption. Team A is awarded a
throw-in on the sideline nearest to where the ball was located when the fouls
occurred. (7-5-3b; 4-36)

NevadaRef, you really shouldn't troll so much. That's not at all what I said.

Nevada:

Dang it! Honestly, I got so caught up in the POI part of the situation that I completely forgot about the penalty summary at the end of Rule 10 (both NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's). But you didn't need to bring up the defintion of simultaneous fouls, I said that the OP was a SF which is a type of FDF.

THEREFORE: Team B gets the ball for a throw-in along the endline as the result of A1's successful field goal attempt.

BUT: I still like the Ancient Days better, :D.

AND: I agree with you that both fouls need to be charged if only to prevent further problems (read retaliation) later in the game.

MTD, Sr.

That's ok, MTD. At your age you are allowed an occasional forgetful moment. :D

As for the Ancient Days... is that when the penalty involved a few lashings? :eek:

No, but when the ball went out of bounds the first player to get to the ball got to make the throw-in. :D

MTD, Sr.

That's why we made them play in cages, hence the term "cagers". There was one supplier in my town that sold cages and peach baskets. He really made some good money back then. However, whenever one of the laces on the basketball ripped, we had to get those from someone else.

Mark:

I have seen pictures of games played with basketball that were secure with laces.

MTD, Sr.

Maybe Mathew B. Brady Cropped The Photo ???
 

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3648/...1534d1ce_m.jpg

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.: Obviously, somebody cropped you out of the photo. I know that Dr. Naismith, or, "Jimmy", as you called him, was your regular partner, since, back then, you were the only two people, in the whole world, who knew the rules.

I don't think that is what Brad wrote. I tend to agree with him. Brad is still saying we penalize both fouls but is saying, if at all possible, avoid the simultaneous foul ruling. In the OP, I don't care when the whistles sounded. My discussion with my partner(s) would have been , can we determine whether one foul happened before the other? If B's foul happened first, that gets penalized first and then we penalize the foul on A2 and resume from there. If A2's foul happened first and after the ball was in the air, penalize that foul first and then shoot the free throw for B's foul with players lined up. If there is absolutely no way to decide which happened first, then the simultaneous route is appropriate. I agree with Brad though, if you can determine the order do it.

Walter,
You need to read the OP again, and review the rules for live ball and dead ball.
The foul against the shooter seems to occur AFTER he has released the ball, but before he has returned to the floor. If that is the case, then the ball will remain live until the try ends. Therefore, if the foul by the player near the basket also occurred AFTER the try was in flight, then it doesn't matter which one came first. They are both live ball fouls and MUST be penalized BY RULE. Under such circumstances there is no provision for penalizing one foul and ignoring the other. That would be setting aside the rules. Unfortunately, that is exactly what Brad recommends. Nowhere in his post does Brad recommend penalizing both fouls. He says that is "the worst option." Instead he says to pick only one, even when the officials can't tell which one happened first! :eek:

He is completely wrong BY RULE. :(

The only way that just a single foul could be called on this play is if it was determined that A2's foul occurred BEFORE A1 released the ball on the try for goal. That would make the ball dead immediately and there wouldn't be a try or a foul against the airborne shooter. However, that was clearly not the case here according to the timing stated by the OP.

I don't know how the two officials would determine which foul came first if they were each watching the action in their areas of coverage. It would be impossible to say. Fortunately, I've already told you that it doesn't matter and that BY RULE both fouls are to be penalized. Furthermore, the simultaneous foul rule says that the fouls only have to take place at "approximately the same time." That certainly fits the OP's description.

I have always agreed that both fouls need to be punished. I also agree that both fouls were live ball fouls. Maybe I am reading between the lines of Brad's post. I believe he is saying what I wrote. Get together, determine, if possible, which came first and penalize in the order they occurred. Now, if after the officials get together, they cannot determine whether one came before the other, then they have no choice and the simultaneous foul rule applies. Thankfully I have never been in that situation and hope I never am. I can only imagine the reaction of the Team A coach when I tell him there will be no free throw even though his/her shooter was still in the act when they got fouled. Chances are pretty good they won;t buy the that's the rule coach without some type of argument.

Frankly, this is just dumb. For one thing, its clear what the rule is. For another, they aren't going to get mad unless you are TRYING to fit some situation into a rule that doesn't belong there, OR, are injecting yourself into the flow of the game for no good reason. Finally, who the hell cares? If you referee by trying to keep coaches from getting mad at you, you can't be very good.

In this case, a clear foul was called by one official, and the other one comes in and says he too has a foul. One official reports both fouls (I would suggest this for simplicity sakes. Probably the worst thing that will happen is one or both coaches has the palms up wanting an explanation, which is easy: "Coach, I had a foul against number __ and he had a foul at the same time against ___. By rule, this is a simultaneous foul and we go to the POI."

The coach(es) may ask about picking one or the other, but just say, "no, this is clearly covered in the rules."

http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...ages/agree.gif

However, you will be surprised at number of officials who will make any excuse to not call something out of the ordinary, even when it would be the proper call. I guess that it makes them too uncomfortable or that they fear a negative reaction from the coaches.

He never said pick only one, he said if you don't know which happened first, choose one. The difference is subtle, but you're smart enough to pick up on that. I took it to mean choose one to penalize first and penalize the other one after.
If you don't know, you're guessing no matter what, whether you go with a simultaneous or a regular false double.

I'm certainly willing to allow Brad to clarify, but everything in his post indicates that he wishes to only penalize one of the two fouls, and simply ignore the other.

So when Brad counts the goal and puts A1 on the line for one FT what is he doing about the foul committed by A2? The coach of Team B should certainly be asking about that. There is no mention of penalizing it afterwards as part of a false double foul. :confused: